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Old 25-12-2014, 15:44   #16
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Re: Loss of the RedSky

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I was anchored behind Dog Island this Summer, I didn't see that boat. Guess this was recent?
It was May, this year. We took the dink to the beach to clean the bottom. That's when we saw it.

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Old 25-12-2014, 15:52   #17
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Re: Loss of the RedSky

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It was May, this year. We took the dink to the beach to clean the bottom. That's when we saw it.

Ralph

I must have missed it then, I was there in July
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Old 25-12-2014, 17:13   #18
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Re: Loss of the RedSky

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
It appears that these FADs are simply tethered buoys.
Jim
Not quite correct ...

Full article here: Tackling the tough stuff — controlling bigeye fishing and monitoring FADs | Samoa News

Some quotes from that article:

Another issue of contention is the use of FADs in the high seas. A press release from the Parties to the Nauru Agreement (PNA) says almost 80,000 drifting FADs are being deployed and tracked by the industry but without the knowledge of PNA or owners of the fishery.

"These FADs drift from zone to zone, often through zones where the fishing boat is not licensed to fish, but they wait until, the FADs drift into the zones where they are fishing," Brownjohn said at the meeting. He escribed FADs as 'IUU+U' or illegal, unregulated, unreported and to date untracked fishing. FADs are objects floating on the surface of the ocean that attract tuna and divert them from their natural path and the WCPFC has imposed a four-month FAD closure for the last two years. -
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Old 25-12-2014, 17:25   #19
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Re: Loss of the RedSky

When I was a kid we used to troll alongside of grass lines, and if there weren't any we would lay out newspapers and come back in an hour or two and troll alongside of them for "Puppy Dolphin". I guess now called Mahi Mahi.
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Old 25-12-2014, 17:31   #20
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Re: Loss of the RedSky

Sad case Jim, and a lot of questions we would all like answered.

If the FADs are big enough to sink a yacht it should be compulsary for them to have AIS.
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Old 25-12-2014, 17:42   #21
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Re: Loss of the RedSky

Merry Boxing Day Jim!


Drifting FADs are becoming more and note common in the Western Pacific.... Certain areas I will no longer travel at night in lumpy weather where the radar is not so dependable at picking them out.

I am glad I have a steel boat as an extra hedge against this stuff.
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Old 25-12-2014, 18:36   #22
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Re: Loss of the RedSky

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Originally Posted by svmariane View Post
Not quite correct ...

Full article here: Tackling the tough stuff — controlling bigeye fishing and monitoring FADs | Samoa News

Some quotes from that article:

Another issue of contention is the use of FADs in the high seas. A press release from the Parties to the Nauru Agreement (PNA) says almost 80,000 drifting FADs are being deployed and tracked by the industry but without the knowledge of PNA or owners of the fishery.

"These FADs drift from zone to zone, often through zones where the fishing boat is not licensed to fish, but they wait until, the FADs drift into the zones where they are fishing," Brownjohn said at the meeting. He escribed FADs as 'IUU+U' or illegal, unregulated, unreported and to date untracked fishing. FADs are objects floating on the surface of the ocean that attract tuna and divert them from their natural path and the WCPFC has imposed a four-month FAD closure for the last two years. -
Well, the ones here in Oz are not drifting, they are tethered to the sea bed like any other buoy as shown in the link provided. Of course, we don't know if that is what Red Sky hit.

Jim
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Old 25-12-2014, 18:40   #23
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Re: Loss of the RedSky

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Well, the ones here in Oz are not drifting, they are tethered to the sea bed like any other buoy as shown in the link provided. Of course, we don't know if that is what Red Sky hit.



Jim

No, but it sounds more logical if he somehow got that tether chain wrapped around his rudder than a light weight buoy doing in the rudder.

People and boat survived, surely we will hear more about it
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Old 25-12-2014, 18:41   #24
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Re: Loss of the RedSky

Without knowing more information, my only comments are that stuff happens on yachts that are out being used... rarely or less likely on boats sitting at the docks with their skippers exploring via the internet or just day sailing on nice days. Rudder failures are more likely on yachts with spade or partially supported skegs than on yachts with fully protected rudders mounted behind full keels or full length skegs, or on yachts with two rudders.

The bottom line... poop happens. Glad they're safe.
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Old 25-12-2014, 19:53   #25
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Re: Loss of the RedSky

My God, A Moody damages its rudder! How long will it be before Punch Mommy gets this up on his thread?
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Old 26-12-2014, 09:58   #26
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Re: Loss of the RedSky

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My God, A Moody damages its rudder! How long will it be before Punch Mommy gets this up on his thread?
Ah, take it easy on Smack, Robert, give him a break. He was obviously traumatized by someone posting photos of broken Hunters, and nowadays it makes him feel better to post thousands of photos of supposedly better boats which also get broken.

Of course no one ever argued that expensive boats never break or can't be broken. But that's not the point.

As to this case, the title is wrong, since the boat was not lost. But still very chilling case. I think there are three important things to take away:

1. Those of us who are paranoid about running into semi-submerged containers or drifting fishing gear at night (and I am one of those!) are not completely crazy. It's a real problem which can have serious consequences. A good radar and close-in guard zone would prevent many of these incidents in reasonable weather, but when the sea's up, as it was in this case, I guess all bets are off.

2. I wish boat designers would think about protecting the stern of the boat, and not just the bow, from flooding . The Moody 54 has a massive watertight collision bulkhead in the bow. Even the bow thruster is mounted in a caisson, so that a blown seal won't flood the boat. But at the stern? Although there's another very sturdy bulkhead between the lazarette and the main hull volume, it's open through the bilge! . How hard would it have been to extend that bulkhead another 200mm deeper, tab it to the bottom of the boat, and put in a sump with another bilge pump there? . This -- I can't call it anything other than a design flaw -- is common to virtually all cruising boats, except only Dashew's magnificent Sundeers and some Amels, as far as I know. This situation would not have caused a crisis in a Sundeer or an Amel, at least, not a flooding crisis.

3. The saddest fact of all, is that Red Sky was abandoned but didn't sink. Well, it's not sad at all, because she will be repaired and put back into commission -- no Moody 54 has ever been lost. But sad because something as simple as adequate bilge pumps could have saved this situation. 99.9% of cruising boats do not have bilge pumps capable of keeping up with even minor flooding. Cruising boats, especially those which don't have extensive watertight compartments, should have serious crash pumps fitted as standard equipment.

I have a pair of Rule 4000's pumping out through 2" hoses, which I added (I am paranoid about flooding, as well as floating containers), for a total of four electric and one manual pump.

But normal bilge pumps are nearly useless in a flooding situation -- because the high water stirs up debris and clogs the strainers.

What you really need to control flooding is a high volume trash pump which will not get clogged -- something like this: HondaWSP100 Model Info | Submersible Water Pump | Honda Pumps

You can store it in the bilge with a folding firehose-type discharge hose.

Some people like the Jabsco engine-driven pumps for this -- I don't like them as much, because (a) they are subject to clogging; (b) the engine must be working for them to work (note that in the Red Sky case the water had disabled the main engine); (c) they are not such big capacity; (d) they are very expensive. For me the electric pump is better because my generator is mounted far above the waterline so should work even with severe flooding.
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Old 26-12-2014, 10:12   #27
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Re: Loss of the RedSky

A bit smaller Moody, think it was a 46, suffered what might be similar damage, although with a somewhat better outcome, about 2 years ago in the Daytona Beach FL area.

A couple was takiing it south in the ICW when they hit the bottom hard at a known bad spot in the ditch. The skeg broke open, and, being hollow, water poured into the boat. It sank, but fortunately in about ten feet of water, and was pumped out and towed to a nearby boatyard.

The owners had just purchased her a few months before and were off on their retirement cruise. They ended up selling it to the boatyard for not much money and I suppose got an insurance settlement.

Wonder if that hollow skeg is a weak point on those boats...
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Old 26-12-2014, 10:40   #28
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Re: Loss of the RedSky

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Originally Posted by onestepcsy37 View Post
A bit smaller Moody, think it was a 46, suffered what might be similar damage, although with a somewhat better outcome, about 2 years ago in the Daytona Beach FL area.

A couple was takiing it south in the ICW when they hit the bottom hard at a known bad spot in the ditch. The skeg broke open, and, being hollow, water poured into the boat. It sank, but fortunately in about ten feet of water, and was pumped out and towed to a nearby boatyard.

The owners had just purchased her a few months before and were off on their retirement cruise. They ended up selling it to the boatyard for not much money and I suppose got an insurance settlement.

Wonder if that hollow skeg is a weak point on those boats...
That was the SV Primrose, an ancient Angus Primrose designed motorsailer from the 1970's with a full skeg rudder. That boat had apparently had a badly executed repair. Those boats were built like brick outhouses in the old-fashioned heavy way; the skegs were not hollow. The Primrose didn't have the skeg "break open"; it was ripped clean off. But I think there is a design defect -- the rudder is the same depth as the keel, making it much more likely to hit the bottom in a grounding. No rudder, whether full skeg, partial, or spade, will withstand the forces exerted from grounding without limit. Obviously a strongly built full skeg will improve your chances, but at some point if you ram any rudder into the seabed, especially in surf, it's going to rip off. So with all respect for the great Angus Primrose, I think this is a major flaw here.

The Moody 54 has a partial skeg only; a halfway house between a spade and full skeg rudder. Similar to the Hylas 54 rudder designed by German Frers. A very different beast. It's quite a bit stronger than a spade would be -- because the lever arm is reduced -- the rudder is supported further down its length, and is in general strongly built. But obviously less strong than a full skeg, and obviously not impervious to damage -- no rudder is.


Partial skeg rudders have another drawback -- there is a joint in the leading edge of the rudder where ropes can get caught. I had a horrendous experience with this a few years ago sailing fast off Sark in the Channel Islands, with a strong fair tide. We were making 13 knots over ground -- 9 knots of boat speed plus 4 knots of current, when suddenly the boat stopped dead in her tracks, causing people on deck to fall over, and dishes in the galley to be smashed. We had hit a large commercial fishing pot -- the buoy was submerged by the strong current and so invisible. The line had passed over the smooth bulb keel, to get caught in that joint between the skeg and the rudder. What kind of fishing pot was down there, which could stop 25 tons of speeding boat dead in its tracks from 13 knots I can't even imagine, but it did. And held us there. With great difficulty we got the line cut and got disentangled. We diverted to St. Peter Port in order to dive on the rudder and check for rope remnants or damage -- fortunately everything was ok. But this would not have happened with a full skeg rudder like on an Oyster -- the rope would have simply slid harmlessly over the end of the skeg.

So there is no ideal type of rudder, and certainly no rudder ever made is impervious to damage.
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Old 26-12-2014, 11:12   #29
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Re: Loss of the RedSky

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I had a horrendous experience with this a few years ago sailing fast off Sark in the Channel Islands, with a strong fair tide. We were making 13 knots over ground -- 9 knots of boat speed plus 4 knots of current, when suddenly the boat stopped dead in her tracks, causing people on deck to fall over, and dishes in the galley to be smashed. We had hit a large commercial fishing pot -- the buoy was submerged by the strong current and so invisible. The line had passed over the smooth bulb keel, to get caught in that joint between the skeg and the rudder. What kind of fishing pot was down there, which could stop 25 tons of speeding boat dead in its tracks from 13 knots I can't even imagine, but it did. And held us there. With great difficulty we got the line cut and got disentangled. We diverted to St. Peter Port in order to dive on the rudder and check for rope remnants or damage -- fortunately everything was ok. But this would not have happened with a full skeg rudder like on an Oyster -- the rope would have simply slid harmlessly over the end of the skeg.

So there is no ideal type of rudder, and certainly no rudder ever made is impervious to damage.
Holy smokes! From 13 kts to zero in an instant. That must have got everyone's attention. Wow.

Glad there was no damage - testament to a well built boat.

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Old 26-12-2014, 11:33   #30
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Re: Loss of the RedSky

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Holy smokes! From 13 kts to zero in an instant. That must have got everyone's attention. Wow.

Glad there was no damage - testament to a well built boat.

Dhillen
Yes, we were very lucky, I think.

It was a day full of mishaps -- I wrote about it here: Overboard -- Again :( You can tell from the title that the rope in the rudder was by no means the greatest mishap of the day!

What is really bizarre is that we turned out to be in the same anchorage as Kenomac -- what a small world. Didn't know him at the time, and only found out later, unfortunately.
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