Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-04-2013, 09:42   #76
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,369
Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

The listing broker gets part of the fee and the selling broker gets part of the fee. If you contract a buyer's broker then I believe he is simply the "selling broker" but is supposed to represent the buyers interests.
My experience has been that any good broker will work as hard for the buyer as the seller.... making the buyer happy puts money in his pocket. The best deals are done when the buyer "sells" the broker on his rationale for the price offerred.
__________________

__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 09:49   #77
Registered User
 
sailpower's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 786
Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

Rght, the selling side is usually 6% and the listing side is usually 4%. These commissions are then split with the houses so the brokers themselves receive half of what they brings in, 3% and 2%.
__________________

__________________
sailpower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 18:49   #78
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: WTB Lagoon or Leopard 38'-40'
Posts: 1,273
Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
My experience has been that any good broker will work as hard for the buyer as the seller.... making the buyer happy puts money in his pocket. The best deals are done when the buyer "sells" the broker on his rationale for the price offerred.
I agree, for both homes and boats. Technically, it is illegal for a broker's agent to represent the buyer's interest in a transaction, but I find that in real life, agents and brokers just want to close a deal. They try to manage the needs of all parties.

In some states, it is legal to represent a buyer in a RE transaction, but there are extra rules about how to do that. I don't think it's legal in all states. I've never heard of "buyer's broker" for a boat sale.
__________________
ArtM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 20:22   #79
Registered User
 
Dulcesuenos's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Florida Keys, Bahamas Bound
Boat: 38' French Cat
Posts: 2,828
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
. I've never heard of "buyer's broker" for a boat sale.
I highly recommend it. Can make for a much more comfortable less pressured buying experience with much easier negotiating.
__________________
Dulcesuenos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 23:22   #80
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: WTB Lagoon or Leopard 38'-40'
Posts: 1,273
Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos View Post
I highly recommend it. Can make for a much more comfortable less pressured buying experience with much easier negotiating.
I'm sure it does, I'm just not sure if it exists as a concept. I don't know if boat brokers are regulated in any way, in fact.

I have had at least one bad experience with a "buyers broker" because I've found that they sometimes are unable to break their old habit, and often forget that they represent the buyer rather than the seller.

I think it's best to simply realize that any sales agent's main purpose is to complete a sale, and will not go out of his way to point out the negatives of a potential puchase - even if he is a buyer's agent.
__________________
ArtM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2013, 01:57   #81
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ty.gregory View Post
Seems the US economy is getting a bit better. Are prices for used boats going higher?
Where I am (west central Florida) there are still good boats available at bargain prices. However, they're beginning to be picked off. i don't know how much longer the buyer's market here will hold up. it's beginning to harden.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2013, 02:19   #82
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
I agree, for both homes and boats. Technically, it is illegal for a broker's agent to represent the buyer's interest in a transaction, but I find that in real life, agents and brokers just want to close a deal. They try to manage the needs of all parties.

In some states, it is legal to represent a buyer in a RE transaction, but there are extra rules about how to do that. I don't think it's legal in all states. I've never heard of "buyer's broker" for a boat sale.
In other parts of the world different rules (and laws) likely apply - but am pretty sure "real life" much the same everywhere .

But to be fair to brokers!, it can often be in the Vendors interest for the Broker to assist a Buyer, it is just a question of degree. And IMO that assistance can even cover being more honest about price and faults than a Vendor is comfortable with - the goal of acheiving a sale (or at least an offer on the table) is all that it is about, and at the end of the day a Broker cannot force any Vendor to either sell or accept any offer, even when they are still in La La Land on price. and are happy to stay there .

I think it is called called brokering (a deal) - perhaps why they are called "Borkers"

IMO if anyone (buyer or vendor) relies solely on a Broker (Boats, Houses or Goats ) to advise them of what an item is worth and hands the whole deal over to them without a decent prior understanding of the process and pitfalls then they deserve what they get.....and not because Brokers are bad, just that they clearly do have skin in the game - if yer can't work out what or why then perhaps yer need to do a search on CF .
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2013, 02:31   #83
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
IMO the bottom was two years ago and the prices are rising. It isn't so much the asking price, it's the discount off the asking price that has been reduced. In 2009-10 you could count on a good 30% drop from asking to selling price, now, I'd guess it's more like 15%. Not nearly as many are desperate to sell anymore.
It's been said before, but worth saying again: It depends very much on the location and market segment and type of boat.

When I was in the market in 2009, I thought I would find a great deal -- all cash buyer, economic crisis, etc. Didn't work out that way. For the kind of boat I wanted, there was no buyer's market at all. I made offers on a couple of Oysters, none of them lowball, within 20% or so of the asking price, and couldn't make a deal. One seller came down 5%, but it was still too expensive for me and I didn't think it was a good deal, so I walked. Third time I did make a deal, and it was within 10% of the full asking price. It took several months of haggling. I signed a contract and paid a deposit. But the results of the survey I commissioned were awful, and the seller was unwilling to participate in a reasonable amount of the cost of remedying all of the problems we found, so I walked again, although it cost me thousands -- price of the survey plus launching and dewinterizing for the sea trials, hauling and re-winterizing. Within two weeks, that boat, an Oyster 485, was sold to someone for quite a bit more than the price I had signed a contract for.

Then I found the boat I eventually bought. I saw her and liked her, although my heart had been set on an Oyster. I made an offer, a very good offer, I thought, within 10% of the asking price. My offer was politely refused, with the remark that the offering price was firm. I tried for several weeks to haggle. No success at all. I gradually realized that the price really was firm. So I finally bought her for the full asking price. The survey results were excellent and the deal was closed smoothly. The whole process took about year from the time I started seriously looking to buy.

So it really all depends.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2013, 04:36   #84
Registered User
 
Group9's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,599
Images: 7
Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
It's been said before, but worth saying again: It depends very much on the location and market segment and type of boat.

When I was in the market in 2009, I thought I would find a great deal -- all cash buyer, economic crisis, etc. Didn't work out that way. For the kind of boat I wanted, there was no buyer's market at all. I made offers on a couple of Oysters, none of them lowball, within 20% or so of the asking price, and couldn't make a deal. One seller came down 5%, but it was still too expensive for me and I didn't think it was a good deal, so I walked. Third time I did make a deal, and it was within 10% of the full asking price. It took several months of haggling. I signed a contract and paid a deposit. But the results of the survey I commissioned were awful, and the seller was unwilling to participate in a reasonable amount of the cost of remedying all of the problems we found, so I walked again, although it cost me thousands -- price of the survey plus launching and dewinterizing for the sea trials, hauling and re-winterizing. Within two weeks, that boat, an Oyster 485, was sold to someone for quite a bit more than the price I had signed a contract for.

Then I found the boat I eventually bought. I saw her and liked her, although my heart had been set on an Oyster. I made an offer, a very good offer, I thought, within 10% of the asking price. My offer was politely refused, with the remark that the offering price was firm. I tried for several weeks to haggle. No success at all. I gradually realized that the price really was firm. So I finally bought her for the full asking price. The survey results were excellent and the deal was closed smoothly. The whole process took about year from the time I started seriously looking to buy.

So it really all depends.
I found that part of the problem was that easy credit hit the boat industry as well as the housing market and many people who seem unwilling to come off prices that seem ridiculously high, do so because that's how much they owe on the boat.
__________________
Group9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2013, 05:28   #85
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
I found that part of the problem was that easy credit hit the boat industry as well as the housing market and many people who seem unwilling to come off prices that seem ridiculously high, do so because that's how much they owe on the boat.
Probably a bit of that.

But perhaps also a fashion thing?, or at least yachts moving off the "nice to have" list for so many.....there will have been folks who previously would have signed the loan form (if one had been available during last 5 years) but instead bought / got involved with another activity and their window (for them) to start on the Yacht thing is gone..........coupled with that some folks who previously bought Yachts simply discovered that they were more of a PITA and cost (for them) than the brochure mentioned , so won't be coming back into the market - including those who got fingers burnt from a forced (or simply a prudent) sale, whilst the buying and owning numbers were still fresh enough to be painful (when compared against the sale proceeds).

All told what I am suggesting is that the "Happy times" for boat sales (new and s/h) won't be coming back even when (if?!) the economy does - especially given that most of the stock from the explosion in boat sales over the previous 20(?) years won't be dissapearing from the market anytime soon.

But a good boat at a good price (even if at a premium) will always sell - and likely will always still be easy enough to shift a real POS (thanks to E-bay etc).....it's just the 90% in the middle (excepting niche markets) that I think will have to accept the new reality for a while yet.......
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2013, 06:38   #86
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,440
Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

When I was in the market in 2009, I thought I would find a great deal -- all cash buyer, economic crisis, etc. Didn't work out that way. For the kind of boat I wanted, there was no buyer's market at all. I made offers on a couple of Oysters, none of them lowball, within 20% or so of the asking price, and couldn't make a deal.

With any boat, the market is supply and demand. The general market affects a particular model only if either there are plenty available, or other models could substitute for it, which is clearly not the case with Oysters. It's a good product with exceptional marketing.

Interesting that they wouldn't even accept 10% less, and that you wouldn't pay 10% more. It appears that they understood the market for these boats better than you did at the time. The problem is that often brokers tell you that's the way the market is for a particular boat, even when it isn't.
__________________
letsgetsailing3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2013, 07:01   #87
Registered User

Join Date: May 2009
Location: holland michigan
Boat: Gulfstar 50 ketch
Posts: 456
Images: 3
Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

The market for sailboats in the USA has never been great. The buy new throw it out mentality has kept the market full. With the age of sailors getting older more boats come to market. There is always a little "spring" bump that will end soon. Look around Craig's list, eBay and Yacht world no shortage of boats.
People are even offering owner financing because banks won't for some. And Dave is right some that have got out will discover that chartering is better for them. The cost of buying may or may not go up but the cost to keep WILL. You can make more boats but can't make more access to the water. No rush to buy, more boats show up on market every day. People die/get to old,they move, they are done with their trips ect.
__________________
ctl411 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2013, 07:34   #88
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos View Post
I highly recommend it. Can make for a much more comfortable less pressured buying experience with much easier negotiating.

It's the same as in real estate. The listing realtor is working for the lister -- the seller -- not the buyer.

A listing broker and a buyer's broker have different legal fiduciary responsibilities.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2013, 07:44   #89
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,776
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

brokers' commissions are still 10 percent on boats, or 3000 usd.
boats are not security, and folks are still offing them.
economy is not yet stable.
we will have buyers market for looooonnnngggg time yet.

is buyer beware, also--one must learn a lot about surveying boats, at least the kind in which they are interested, as there is no one protecting you and your purchase. be able to inspect everything yourself.
then have a surveyor do the deed for purchase and insurance.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2013, 08:10   #90
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Alberg 30
Posts: 344
Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post

His numbers are off, but he has a point about carrying costs. Most boat sellers have a tendency to forget the costs of owning a depreciating asset when they set their prices higher than market.

The smart move would be to price it a little low and move it.
+1

I have an offer that is confirmed except for the cash hand over, and another buyer who's kicking himself and promising he'll buy it if the first buyer backs out.

I never even got around to listing it for sale, just mentioned that I was thinking of selling and a price, to one person who mentioned it to someone else.


When he's not asking me to sell it to him, he's scolding me for pricing it low. If I priced it 4k higher and it takes 6 months to sell, I've not saved any money.
__________________

__________________
jgbrown is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:59.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.