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Old 28-06-2016, 08:42   #421
vjm
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

We know very little about what happened, including whether the boat sank and whether the boys died. Of course, it is assumed that both those things happened, but that is not based on much physical evidence. Lots of assumptions and speculation but not many facts. Someone who says he had been aboard described the boat as "rickety" to the media. No info on what he meant by that exactly and when he was last aboard. Someone said that they offered to lend the father a VHF but he left before picking it up. So no one knows if he had one on board or not. So far, it's not really an event you can draw many conclusions from without more facts.
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Old 28-06-2016, 09:21   #422
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by vjm View Post
We know very little about what happened, including whether the boat sank and whether the boys died. Of course, it is assumed that both those things happened, but that is not based on much physical evidence. Lots of assumptions and speculation but not many facts. Someone who says he had been aboard described the boat as "rickety" to the media. No info on what he meant by that exactly and when he was last aboard. Someone said that they offered to lend the father a VHF but he left before picking it up. So no one knows if he had one on board or not. So far, it's not really an event you can draw many conclusions from without more facts.
You have that right about conclusions. The only things not posted were Puff the Magic Dragon and Nessie. I hope someone posts the results of the investigation.

A sad thing. Sadder because of kids.
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Old 28-06-2016, 09:40   #423
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

News report I read said the boat was in poor condition, they had lived aboard for a year and were re positioning the boat to affect repairs.
Plus as I said, Wx wasn't that bad and yet they sank. That is sort of the definition of non seaworthy?
Not trying to be derogatory or to dishonor the dead, but anytime any boat sinks when the weather or other "acts of God" like lightning aren't the cause of the sinking, it wasn't seaworthy.
Not knowing the cause of the sinking, I don't know if they weren't struck by lightning for example, but I don't remember any lightning.
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Old 28-06-2016, 09:48   #424
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
News report I read said the boat was in poor condition, they had lived aboard for a year and were re positioning the boat to affect repairs.
Plus as I said, Wx wasn't that bad and yet they sank. That is sort of the definition of non seaworthy?
Not trying to be derogatory or to dishonor the dead, but anytime any boat sinks when the weather or other "acts of God" like lightning aren't the cause of the sinking, it wasn't seaworthy.
Not knowing the cause of the sinking, I don't know if they weren't struck by lightning for example, but I don't remember any lightning.
The logical assumption is that the boat sank, based on the flotsam. Still an assumption without corroboration at this point though.
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Old 28-06-2016, 11:27   #425
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
And please note: in Australian waters the phone number to call is 000, not 911. I point that out as thousands of children growing up in the 70's here thought our emergency number was what was in Sesame street and it took the authorities almost a decade to rectify it.
First we take your culture, then we take your women (and no, I have nothing of substance to add):



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Old 28-06-2016, 11:38   #426
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

A topical, timeless, quote (below) from Steve and Linda Dashew's book "Practical Seamanship", p. 18, pretty well sums up this thread.
Somebody around here provided a link to the Dashew's website with the now free pdf format books (four of them, highly recommended), thanks, I'm reading when I can.

(bolding mine)
"PREPARATION
Some folks feel that the level of preparation they
need to go sailing varies according to the type of
cruising they plan. While this proposition sounds
reasonable on its face it falls down in operation.
You can never be 100-percent sure of the wind and
sea conditions that you are going to encounter.
The line between onshore and offshore sailing
grows thinner with more experience.
Defensive seamanship goes hand-in-hand with
defensive preparation. In the end we all hope the
details that are attended to in advance go unused.
But to deal with the sea on an equal basis you must
have the cards stacked in your favor.

It is often the case that one small problem leads
to another, and then that to something else. Before long this chain of
events, coupled with a lack of knowledge of how to handle the conditions
leads to fear among the crew. Fear leads to inaction, and then trouble, perhaps requiring outside assistance.
It is so much better to be prepared in advance.
This does not have to cost a huge amount of money. With a few simple tools and basic do-it-yourself skills the seaworthiness of your boat can be substantially upgraded.
"

All the back and forth on this thread just reinforces the above quote.
A tragic incident has occurred that may well have been preventable in many ways. Of course the final investigative report will/may reach a conclusion.
But in all likelihood it was an unprepared, unaware, not highly skilled sailor and well-meaning father, who made some errors in judgement, was further hampered by natural, uncontrollable forces, probable equipment failures, and fate.
Like so many other incidents, beginning with a minor systems stressor of some kind, WX, equipment, hardly matters. Then the cascade of other events and glitches pushes it beyond recovery.
I made an earlier reference to the USCG release of a picture of a half-spent handheld flare (others wrongly called it 'burned out'). It is probably significant as to the suddenness of the final moments, or perhaps they just extinguished it thinking to reuse it later, unlikely we'll ever know.
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Old 28-06-2016, 12:03   #427
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Most of the posts on this thread contain total nonesense. No amount of safety equipment or goverment reguations are going to save you if you're faced with a basic downward spiral of circumstances, which I believe was the case wih this family.

Nearly every winter in New England, we hear news of a family suffering multiple deaths when their dog falls through the ice. A family member tries to save the dog and falls in doing so, then a second member falls through trying to save the other. Then rescue arrives to save the dog, which is the only one remaining alive.

Stuff happens.

If some of you would step away from your computer screen and experience coastal or offshore cruising firsthand, you'd find out rather quickly just how unpredictable it is out there.

A person can die in just minutes, rescue can take hours to reach you. Nothing is for sure, no guaranteed outcomes.
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Old 28-06-2016, 12:35   #428
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Shoestring sailing is nothing new. I'm sure many here have sailed, knowingly or not, on vessels with flimsy tillers and rudders, unsound rigging and corroded through hulls.

The fact that I have dodged a lot of bullets doesn't make me superior. Just lucky.

A large percentage of valuable experience comes from poor judgement.
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Old 28-06-2016, 12:45   #429
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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First we take your culture, then we take your women (and no, I have nothing of substance to add):



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Yeah, but she had common sense, and gave him back.

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Old 28-06-2016, 12:51   #430
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Quote:
A person can die in just minutes, rescue can take hours to reach you.
This is true, however, it is speculated that they got into trouble on Sunday 6/19. That is when a few severe storms rolled through this area.

SAR did not begin until Tuesday 6/21. If there had been maybe even a single mayday, the search may have begun on Sunday. Speculation, but it was probably all over for them before the Coast Guard even started looking.
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Old 28-06-2016, 13:05   #431
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
... Plus as I said, Wx wasn't that bad and yet they sank. That is sort of the definition of non seaworthy?
....
Rubbish. Unless you were on the scene, you haven't a clue what weather they may have encountered. E.g. last Friday a nasty little bitch of a fast moving squall blew through Pt. Charlotte/Punta Gorda with 60 knot gusts and quarter sized hail. It ripped off roofs and shattered building and car windows but was then gone in 40 minutes, leaving wreckage and stunned victims in its wake. Ten miles away, north or south, it was an unremarkable sunny, hot, muggy day. Weather events in South Florida at this time of year are too topical to make any judgements unless you speak of the weather within you line of sight.

During passages of that same locale, we have had a mild sunny day with light nw winds suddenly blacken and pound us with near horizontal rain and 40+ knt winds over the deck almost more quickly than we could drop to our 3rd reef. Fortunately, we have a sturdy yacht designed for tough off shore conditions, and not an old day sailor simply trying to make a quick near shore transit. It was nerve wracking never-the-less.
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Old 28-06-2016, 13:32   #432
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Most of the posts on this thread contain total nonesense. No amount of safety equipment or goverment reguations are going to save you if you're faced with a basic downward spiral of circumstances, which I believe was the case wih this family.

Nearly every winter in New England, we hear news of a family suffering multiple deaths when their dog falls through the ice. A family member tries to save the dog and falls in doing so, then a second member falls through trying to save the other. Then rescue arrives to save the dog, which is the only one remaining alive.

Stuff happens.

If some of you would step away from your computer screen and experience coastal or offshore cruising firsthand, you'd find out rather quickly just how unpredictable it is out there.

A person can die in just minutes, rescue can take hours to reach you. Nothing is for sure, no guaranteed outcomes.
Very well said and well reasoned. Spot on.
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Old 28-06-2016, 13:41   #433
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
A person can die in just minutes, rescue can take hours to reach you. Nothing is for sure, no guaranteed outcomes.
Sure, but having an GPS compatible EPIRB unit can help get that rescue to you so much faster than not having one and maybe having an overdue report logged by someone several days after your boat sunk from under you.

I know what I am spending $289 on next week

https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_i...AbsolutePage=1
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Old 28-06-2016, 13:48   #434
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

I specifically decided to NOT post to this thread as I didn't wish to be involved in the inevitable rehash of "what might have happened", etc...
BUT...

But, I see so many posting small snippets of info about EPIRB's, PLB's, etc. (and even VHF-DSC radio), and some have provided good info (Dockhead and Noelex77)....although, some of the other info is inaccurate!

So, I thought I would point all of you to the COSPAS-SARSAT details?? As well as info on the excellent VHF coverage of the USCG in this area...
Or, at least, have a look at this recent thread right here, where you will see all of the COSPAS-SARSAT links, as well as plenty of details/explanation of all of this, intended for use by layperson-sailors!!

EPIRB's are NOT dead! / EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds!!


For those unaware, the USCG has excellent VHF coverage / VHF-DSC coverage over the entire US Coastline....
This is designed (and works) for a useable range of 20nm offshore, for a 1 watt handheld transmitter, with its antenna at 2 meters above the sea...being able to detect and DF a signal of only one second in duration!

In practice, this works very well....and for those with 25-watt radios and/or masthead-mounted antennas, the range can reliably be 40 - 60nm, everyday 24/7/365...
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=mtNds

Here are those coverage areas for Florida....remember this is for a 1-watt handheld, with antenna at 2 meters above the water...
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/images/ma.../SecStPete.jpg



Rustic, I mean NO offense at all!!
REALLY, I don't!!
It's just that your post stood out in my mind, 'cause it shows a common misunderstanding....and please note that many of the various governments' websites, etc. actually propagate this misunderstanding!

A modern EPIRB and/or PLB ("406mhz EPIRB" or "406mhz PLB") transmits short bursts of data on 406mhz to both LEOSAR and GEOSAR satellites....not a continuous encoded radio signal....(hence the reason for the 121.5mhz "homing signal")
{And, remember the "GPS coordinates" that everyone is assuming can be picked up so easily, actually cannot be picked-up that easily!!
These are ONLY received by the GEOSAR satellites and you must have your EPIRB in the clear / unobstructed at all times, for these signals to get thru....(and PLB's make this even harder!)
The primary position fix from EPIRB or PLB deployment is from the LEOSAR satellites, where this is just a Doppler-fix....and is only a general/approximate location, which could be many dozens, or hundreds, of miles away!!}
It also transmits a very low-power (25mw to 50mw) 121.5mhz homing signal, continuously....

EPIRB's will send these signals until the battery runs out....minimum time spec is 48hrs, in damn cold water, at "end-of-certified life" for the battery...
PLB's have other specs, but most will do the same as EPIRB's up to 24 hours...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
"Once activated, an EPIRB will continuously transmit a specific encoded radio signal on 406 MHz capable of detection by COSPAS/SARSAT satellites throughout the world whilst simultaneously transmitting a 121.5 MHz homing signal"

Plb's are only 406 MHz

I think that's the difference.
Please see the referenced thread....
EPIRB's are NOT dead! / EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds!!

And, Dockhead's post here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
EPIRBS and PLB's ALL transmit the distress signal on 406.

EPIRBS transmit a homing signal on 121.5. As far as I know ALL PLB's ALSO transmit the same homing signal on 121.5; in any case the ACR ones do.

The only real difference between EPIRBs and PLBs is that PLB's are not required to have 48 hours battery life; the minimum requirement is 24 hours.
That and -- EPIRBs are designed to put the antenna in the right position when the EPIRB is just floating in the water. With PLB's, you have to hold the device yourself and orient the antenna. EPIRB antennae are a bit better than PLB ones.
I do hope the above referenced thread ( EPIRB's are NOT dead! / EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds!! ) helps some here sort out what EPIRB's, what the COSPAS-SARSAT system is, etc., and most importantly how best to use/deploy an EPIRB!!


Fair winds..

John

P.S. I hope you all don't mind, but I will be unsubscribing from this thread....I will check back from time-to-time, but I haven't the time to read all of the posts, etc...(I'm only up to post #324, out-of 430!)
But, if you have questions for me about EPIRB's, PLB's, VHF-DSC Radio (or MF/HF-DSC radio), etc., please post those in the other threads, and I'll do what I can to help...
Fair winds...
John
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Old 28-06-2016, 16:14   #435
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Re: Father and his kids missing at sea

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First we take your culture, then we take your women (and no, I have nothing of substance to add):



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