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Old 28-03-2017, 18:37   #1
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Drug interceptions on the high seas

Currently, there is a big story in the news about US and Canadian war ships intercepting and seizing tons of drugs. I am curious about how this all works.
So I realize that 'might makes right', that they have big guns and I don't so let's not go there. I also realize that a US war ship can intercept any US registered ship anywhere they want and the same with a Canadian ship intercepting a Canadian flagged ship anywhere. I also realize that any navy from a given country can intercept anyone they feel like while in their own territorial waters.
Let me also state that I think that getting drugs out of circulation is a good thing!
So here is the part that I am curious about: I am sailing along in the middle of nowhere, minding my own business, in international waters. I am Canadian flagged.
Out of nowhere a RIB pulls up with a big gun and the people on the RIB ask to board me. Let's say I decline ... obviously the guys with the big gun will say 'no problem' and depart .... NOT!

What makes the interception of boats on the high seas legal ? Or is it a case where nobody cares what the law is ?

I would be curious to find out exactly what is or is not legal (never mind what is actually done)
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Old 28-03-2017, 22:49   #2
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Re: Drug interceptions on the high seas

UNCLOS: http://www.un.org/depts/los/conventi...s/unclos_e.pdf

Article 110:

Except where acts of interference derive from powers conferred by
treaty, a warship which encounters on the high seas a foreign ship, other than
a ship entitled to complete immunity in accordance with articles 95 and 96,
is not justified in boarding it unless there is reasonable ground for suspecting
that:
(a) the ship is engaged in piracy;
(b) the ship is engaged in the slave trade;
(c) the ship is engaged in unauthorized broadcasting and the flag
State of the warship has jurisdiction under article 109;
(d) the ship is without nationality; or
(e) though flying a foreign flag or refusing to show its flag, the ship
is, in reality, of the same nationality as the warship.
2. In the cases provided for in paragraph 1, the warship may proceed
to verify the ship's right to fly its flag. To this end, it may send a boat under
the command of an officer to the suspected ship. If suspicion remains after
the documents have been checked, it may proceed to a further examination on
board the ship, which must be carried out with all possible consideration.
3. If the suspicions prove to be unfounded, and provided that the ship
boarded has not committed any act justifying them, it shall be compensated
for any loss or damage that may have been sustained.
4. These provisions apply mutatis mutandis to military aircraft.
5. These provisions also apply to any other duly authorized ships or
aircraft clearly marked and identifiable as being on government service
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Old 28-03-2017, 23:15   #3
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Re: Drug interceptions on the high seas

Thanks StuM, exactly what I was looking to clarify!
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Old 28-03-2017, 23:19   #4
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Re: Drug interceptions on the high seas

Hmmm... seems a lot of race boats might fall under the "slave ship" definition!

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Old 28-03-2017, 23:23   #5
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Re: Drug interceptions on the high seas

Jd1,

First off, you are unlikely to receive a boarding request at sea. In the case of drug interdiction, most of that is based on confidential informants, and if you're not in the trade, you're outta the loop.

Secondly, there's probably some Canadian agreement with the US that would allow your boat to be boarded for suspicion.....or to see if you have proper plumbing, but would expect that to bear, only in US waters, like Stu M posted. For US boats, the coasties have an agreement with the Navy, in international waters, the coasties get the Navy to do it.

I don't know exactly what would happen if you objected to their boarding you, but I believe you are within youse's and theirs's boundaries, if you ask them to note the reason you have given them, perhaps concern that their vessel will damage yours, if they get close enough to board someone.

If you are boarded, expect at least 3 armed men, in "hobnailed boots", expect to be separated from your crew and interviewed separately. Just figure out in advance how you want to handle the situation, then let it work its course. Understand that your resistance may be taken for hostility...or guilt.

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Old 29-03-2017, 01:20   #6
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Re: Drug interceptions on the high seas

Why don't they wear proper boat shoes rather than showing no respect for the boat owners property.
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Old 29-03-2017, 03:24   #7
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Re: Drug interceptions on the high seas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Florida View Post
Why don't they wear proper boat shoes rather than showing no respect for the boat owners property.
Because they can?!
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Old 29-03-2017, 03:37   #8
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Re: Drug interceptions on the high seas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Florida View Post
Why don't they wear proper boat shoes rather than showing no respect for the boat owners property.
For the same reason their land based counterparts smash doors for entry - impunity. Has nothing to do with "safety of surprise" as the boots on boat decks clearly prove but everything to do with intimidation, aggression and lack of accountability for the damages they cause to - up to the court verdict - innocent citizens. "We the people" sheepishly allowed all of these attitudes to become SOPs all in the name of "safety and security". And in the end we deserve it, as Ben Franklin famously once stated.
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Old 29-03-2017, 04:55   #9
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Re: Drug interceptions on the high seas

I don't think the US is a party to UNCLOS.

The USCG can conduct a documentation and safety inspection on a US flag vessel any time, any where, or on a foreign-flagged vessel in US waters. Inspections for other law enforcement purposes must comply with the US Constitution.

The US has a number of bilateral treaties with other countries that permit law enforcement activities by US authorities in those countries' waters, or on those countries' vessels.
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Old 29-03-2017, 06:49   #10
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Re: Drug interceptions on the high seas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
SNIP
So here is the part that I am curious about: I am sailing along in the middle of nowhere, minding my own business, in international waters.

SNIP

What makes the interception of boats on the high seas legal ? Or is it a case where nobody cares what the law is ?

I would be curious to find out exactly what is or is not legal (never mind what is actually done)
International waters is a big place and while the UN and the LOS treaty to some extend deal with it in general your questions are better answered with specific answers for specific areas.

For what I will call drug routes to the US in the Atlantic and Pacific North of the equator the US has treaties (and in many cases gives significant foreign aid) with countries where the routes originate allowing interception of boats suspected of illegal activities. Does not matter where the boat is flagged or anything else. There are a few countries where treaties are not signed like Cuba and Venezuela but those countries are viewed as suspect and the lack of a treaty means boats from there get more eye balls from LEOs.

At the other end of the spectrum there are places like the South China Sea where China claims jurisdiction over what almost everyone else views as the high seas and in those places it is a simple case of might makes right. To some extent this is also true for what I will call many third world countries, and some second world countries. Also keep in mind one of the favorite CF hot button topics "guns on boats" means with the exception of the US most countries seem to think a gun on a boat means the boat can be sized and the capt and crew thrown in jail; and intercepting boats under that pretense is justified.

Maybe a good US analogy would be how speeding is treated. Lots of folks speed, some get caught, and there are speed traps in a few areas. In almost all places LEOs can cite you for speeding and there is a lot of inter agency cooperation. In really bad cases a speed trap will screw you. But in general you should be OK.

Bottom line is there is no simple one size fits all answer to your question. I have to say I have only been boarded once and seen it happen several other times. In no case was anyone wearing hobnail boats, but what I would call appropriate rubber soled military low cut shoes.
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Old 29-03-2017, 08:15   #11
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Re: Drug interceptions on the high seas

yeah but
what if its some other navy, like say China
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Old 29-03-2017, 08:17   #12
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Re: Drug interceptions on the high seas

I beleive that Bahamas, and most of West Indies has granted such autorisation to US Coast Guard, for the purpose of drug enforcement laws. So any boat traveling in these seas, mais be borded by US flaged military.
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Old 29-03-2017, 08:17   #13
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Re: Drug interceptions on the high seas

Footwear choices are determined by a couple of things. Neither one particularly related to intimidation value.
- Few military uniforms specify sneakers as duty footwear. Primarily, athletic gear. And sometimes onboard submarines. Or, rarely, small boat operations.
- Boots are part of the uniform of the day. And are included on a lot of small boat operations for the same reason they're worn shipboard. Foot & ankle protection.

Ships are metal, as are doorways, & hatches. So kicking, or bumping into them, or bulkheads etc. if/when moving at even walking speeds can be pretty painful. If not injurious.

And when boarding one vessel from another, there's a very real possibility of getting one's foot or leg snagged in the gap between the two. Be it the ship's tender & the (steel) ship, or the tender, & your (hard) vessel. So every little bit of protection helps.

Consider too that the young men & women doing these operations generally have very, very little time onboard small boats. Much less than you do. And so aren't familiar with how they move. Plus they're likely to be keyed up on adrenaline, so much so that it's easy to misstep, & or step more heavily than was intended (& not even notice doing so).

Plus, they're wearing, & carrying a significant amount of equipment a lot of the time during such events. Which adds to the heavy feet thing.
Just try wearing a helmet of any significance around for a length of time. Your ability to be lith will no doubt suffer. And it's not just due to the weight or fatigue. Your hearing, vision, inherent inner ear stability, etc. suffer too.
Then strap on; body armor, a life jacket, weapons, first aid gear, flashlights, uniforms... Along with that idea in the back of your head that you might get shot at. But that you still have to be "polite". Plus a dozen other, obvious things, & 2 dozen+ non-obvious ones. And some of the why behind the way things go during boardings becomes evident.

PS: Most folks in uniform at sea routinely work 20hrs a day, often more. So that does tend to alter one's actions, & interactivity. And to be blunt, they put your peace of mind, & tendency to see them as jackboots at the forefront of what governs their behavior. Vs. their own personal safety, & or conducting their jobs with maximum efficacy. Since one incident of bad press ruins the careers of a whole lot of people, in seconds. Whether they were acting correctly, & in a situationally warranted fashion or not.

Which, BTW, politicians write a lot of their behavioral scripts for such drills, military correctness & necessity quite often take a back seat during the drafting of doctrine, & execution of such proceedures & encounters.
Your safety, & emotional sensibilities get put far, far above their safety. Even if it may not seem like it.

Think about how dangerous just a traffic stop is for Law Enforcement. A situation where backup is at most 2 min away. And if things go bad, it's easy to put distance & metal in between the good guys, & the bad guys.
But at sea, what are the good guys (boarding party's) options? Yeah, few, & awful. At best.
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Old 29-03-2017, 08:19   #14
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Re: Drug interceptions on the high seas

Last October sailing direct from Tahiti to New Zealand not having seen a vessel for weeks suddenly had a plane fly low over me the radio through with my name. From New Zealand, they asked my name my last and next port. Some 500 miles from land i supplied the information confirming that i has the relevant paperwork for entering the country. However when they asked my ETA I requested a forecast to give a suitable answer. Was told they couldn't do that as only have a forecast for a couple of hours into the future!!! Unbelievable! I told them 5 days but due to adverse winds took 10. However questioned to myself the "legality" of such requests on the High Seas and expected unfriendly welcome. However arriving at Wharangei couldn't have had a more warm, welcoming reception from Immigration/customs.
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Old 29-03-2017, 08:54   #15
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Re: Drug interceptions on the high seas

Anytime you mix legitimate LE purposes (drugs are bad, I get that) with legitimate military purpose/resources (we need to protect our borders, I get that) you get an illegitimate hydra monster. The term "war on drugs" is the best example of this. Once you start viewing YOUR OWN citizens through military lenses and applying military strategy to what is basically a medical/societal/economic issue, the rest follows, even if unintentionally. Thus the automatic weapons, the jack boots, the Nazi era looking uniforms, cavalier attitudes toward the int'l law, our own US Constitution and civil liberties, etc, etc.

From the responses in this thread I'm pretty much convinced that the very concept of "international waters" is in its death throes and exists on paper only. If the very people who are or should be the beneficiaries of such "int'l waters" laws (CF cruisers and/or future cruisers) are very lukewarm in upholding the concept and its enforcement what should we expect from land based population and its representatives?

PS All other things being equal, from a boater' perspective, I'd much rather read the news form the int'l waters (key word here "int'l") of "another pirate crew arrested and tried" than "another drug haul intercepted". In local waters both news should be welcomed.
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