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Old 18-12-2011, 19:46   #256
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Originally Posted by Rakuflames
My 31' Hunter is a hoot to sail! When you get everything *just right* she takes off like a stallion. You can feel the boat galloping forward through your feet. It's a real thrill, frankly.

Then for me, at the end of the day, she's a very comfortable boat to live on (once I learned how to tuck in my elbows in the head -- grin).
That's what I mean with designs based on science. The shape of the hull, keel, rudder is based on scientifically proven profiles that maximize effectiveness. Compare that to design based on how it's been done for generations or what looks right. Any modern design beats that, even when the architect isn't drawing regatta champions. So yes, a Hunter is a good boat for sailing just like Benes, Jeannys, Catalinas etc. I have sailed a Dehler 42 that I could just let go of the wheel for hours, the boat steering itself upwind better than I could. Dehler, Hanse, Bavaria's, all in the same class as the other brands mentioned before.

On the other hand, sailing quality isn't the critism I think... it's about build quality or better, the budget allowed to build them. How do they withstand getting holed on a reef, or how are the forces of a keel slamming on rock distributed and absorbed, what breaks when the rudder smashes into that sand bar etc. All things that are not normally done with a boat. This is also why it's so difficult to compare the quality of these design features and much is just speculation.

I could see how a Hunter owner might refuse a trade with same size Swan because of comforts of living aboard... but I don't think any would skip a trade with a Hallberg Rassy, Contest, Oyster, Trintella etc. All of those are very comfortable to live on, sail like a dream, and will do better in extreme conditions... oh yes and cost double or more!

The only real damage I have seen on a Hunter was caused by a big hurricane. Some other boats (incl. the old school designs I must admit) fared a bit better in the same situation. All this says is stay clear of hurricanes. Jedi, with all her safety and reputation of build quality still had $10k damage and triggered about $20k of other pre-emptive replacements like rigging, sails etc.... (but could just sail away from it without repair, so non essential damage).
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Old 18-12-2011, 19:51   #257
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Originally Posted by Rakuflames

But in fairness, the OP is looking at 31' - 33] -- not 45'. There would be a huge difference in how the two sizes would handle, for instance, high waves.
Yes, Chris was commenting on 30-33' and I would agree to his assessment. I also agree that the 45' can do blue water on milk run world circumnavigation even. But I wouldn't take it to Antarctica.

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Old 18-12-2011, 20:20   #258
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Originally Posted by knotnow View Post
Well good buddy that sound a little presumptuous on your part. Last November we delivered a Hunter 45CC to Puerto Rico from North Carolina about the same time the Caribbean 1500 was going the same way. If you want to look back that was one hell of a weather pattern. Over 1500 miles latter we arrived a bit tired but she was still intact.
To infer that you should just gunk hole around then buy something serious for Caribbean cruising is just silly. Doing the Windwards AND the Leewards means the longest (Anagda Passage) is 80 some KM.

BTW - We did 65W not the Thornless path
As others mentioned, I was commenting on the 30-33. I sail the 33 currently and love it, although I wouldn't want to take it out far offshore in heavy weather, (+ 40kts), primarily due to it's hull shape. At it's current length, it's a bit too much of a wave jumper with it's flat bottom. I have been on longer Hunters, and haven't noticed the same tendency to skip and pound.

My opinion is the pounding that the hull creates will eventually cause a failure in the rigging on a rough passage. That's purely anecdotal, based on sailing the 33 in rough weather while watching some older c & c's next to me and thinking, "How can they drink tea in this?". Not exactly like that, but you get the drift. Perhaps the other 95% of the time they're looking at us and thinking, "How did they fit that spit roast in the cockpit?"
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Old 19-12-2011, 04:43   #259
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post

On the other hand, sailing quality isn't the critism I think... it's about build quality or better, the budget allowed to build them. How do they withstand getting holed on a reef, or how are the forces of a keel slamming on rock distributed and absorbed, what breaks when the rudder smashes into that sand bar etc. All things that are not normally done with a boat. This is also why it's so difficult to compare the quality of these design features and much is just speculation.

I was trying to just leave this thread alone. But this is the type of comment that helps keep this thing burning. The build quality of a Hunter is not low quality! Please indicate what Hunter is doing different that makes you suggest this. Go to the Hunter web site and watch thier construction videos (what other builder even posts their videos of their contruction).

The reason I feel people say this is that they think because the price on a production boat is lower that the construction must also be. But the price is lower due to scale of operations. The only really build cost reduction has to do with the lower use of wood etc in the interior. Te hull/eck contruction is done pretty much just like everyone else!
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Old 19-12-2011, 06:02   #260
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Originally Posted by Don Lucas

I was trying to just leave this thread alone. But this is the type of comment that helps keep this thing burning. The build quality of a Hunter is not low quality! Please indicate what Hunter is doing different that makes you suggest this. Go to the Hunter web site and watch thier construction videos (what other builder even posts their videos of their contruction).

The reason I feel people say this is that they think because the price on a production boat is lower that the construction must also be. But the price is lower due to scale of operations. The only really build cost reduction has to do with the lower use of wood etc in the interior. Te hull/eck contruction is done pretty much just like everyone else!
I agree Don, that is why I defined it better as "the budget allowed to build them". Every production boat, low or high priced, is build to a specific budget, and Hunter has decided to concentrate on the lower price side.

If you want to push that it doesn't matter in any way how much money is put into building a boat, then that is okay with me, but discussion stops. If you seriously want to discuss what is different between say a Hunter and let's choose a Hallberg Rassy, then I can try to explain that. I will give two examples that are very obvious to me and should be easy to see:

1. The looks of he boat. When you must meet similar requirements for both strength and interior space, it costs more when you want it to look pretty, more so when overall length is limited. There's a lot in that sentence... First, in general, bigger boats are easier to make look pretty. When you can use more expensive materials, things like constructural beams can be made smaller and lighter for the same strength. Boats like Wally get so expensive because their designers want to make them so futuristic looking that only high tech materials and building methods make that possible. So, most of this is invisible; it might be the type of cloth used in a laminate, the type of resin, a metal frame (X-yachts), etc. My Sundeer is made with vinylester resin for example. Thank god they mostly put the chopper guns aside, but matt is still used way too much imo.

2. Rigging. Compare wall thickness of the masts, number and positioning of stays and shrouds and the spreaders. You will find that cheaper build will have turnbuckles out of reach like at spreaders, thinner wall mast, longer spreaders, often as wide as the hull is, which is bad, and often more shrouds because the mast needs more support. Capshrouds will be dimensioned for weight and righting moment but safety margins might be smaller. The tricky thing with rigging is that a thinner walled mast saves weight aloft which is a good thing and results in eased requirements for capshroud thickness etc. So much of this is actually good, until you start comparing how much punishment it can take before something fails. This is why racers see their rig come down more often than cruisers.
The very wide spreaders are a give away. This is done to make the angle of capshrouds to mast bigger which increases mast support without the level of compression that narrower rigs put on the mast (which is required because the thinner walled mast can't take that). The negatives are that the failure rate of the spreaders will probably be higher (my speculation) and one will more often hit a wall or neighbouring boats rig etc. I have seen wide rigs hit walls in locks regularly.
I hate turnbuckles up on spreaders. To tune those rigs, you should go up the spreader while sailing to make adjustments, or do trial and error forever, or just accept a so-so tuned rig. But even some high dollar boats have this... The designer/builders thought must be in the lines of "frak them, let them hire a rigger".

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 19-12-2011, 06:35   #261
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

Just full of assumptions that production builders are using some mystery cheap materials without going to their websites and looking at the construction etc. Just not true.


Please show me some proof that HR is using something to build their hulls with better material than Hunter etc

Don't agrue the "price point" thing, the word you used 3 or so posts ago that I disagree with is "quality".
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Old 19-12-2011, 07:07   #262
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

Hit the topsides of a Hunter (or a HR ) with a hammer and if it bounces off and hits you on the noggin it be a quality build ......it it goes straight through probably veneered MDF (over?) relying on good design.......and correct maintanence (or at the least the absence of Owners doing stupid stuff ).

Heavy as f#ck mind .............but boats all about compromises.

Of course few things nowadays built to last........I thinks it's a "Lifestyle" thing .

FWIW I recall from my time on YBW.com (the Forum for the main UK Magazines) that "Bendytoys" got exactly the same treatment as Hunters do on CF, but whether that because no one had heard of US Hunter or they were considered superior is another thing........No idea whether that still the case, After my 3rd lifetime ban I kinda gave up on the place. and buying the mags .

But at the end of the day, you buy what works for "you" and makes "you" happy. And if that includes Trolling through a forum or 2 to generate some heat and not much light, then so be it

For me (at present) happy be a 30' and 40 yo boat (50%+ for the onboard fiddling around / refurb). and a Trimaran under build .......but would be perfectly happy to buy a Hunter (or a Bendytoy ) if the circumstances and price was right.......and even an ex-charter one, despite the fact I don't have enough freinds to fill all 27 berths onboard (lined locker space?).....just wouldn't buy under any delusions that it wasn't a Ford. Hell, nowadays even Mercedes don't build cars like a Mercedes .
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Old 19-12-2011, 10:41   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas
Just full of assumptions that production builders are using some mystery cheap materials without going to their websites and looking at the construction etc. Just not true.
No Don, that is not what I wrote. I wrote that others might use more expensive, high tech materials. That leaves regular building materials as well as cheap ones. I think my examples were worth of a better and more detailed response that what you replied with. When you ask for details, you can't just wipe them off the table with a general remark like that.

cheers,
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Old 19-12-2011, 10:52   #264
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

Don,

Take it from a Westsailor (possibly one of the most contentious boats ever built).... You need to get over people slagging your boat/brand. It will lower your blood pressure and let you move on to more important things. You know, like raiding the multi board and attacking catamarans.

Just saying.

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Old 19-12-2011, 11:35   #265
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Then *I* was able to make an intelligent judgment about whether or not it would be an issue *for me.*
I am afraid you be out of step with modern times. If the answer you have already decided you want ain't delivered sugar coated on a spoon, then it don't count. Thinking for self is a no no.

Quote:
When I see someone say "What would you rather be on" and then describes some very horiffic and specific condition -- I know I'm not going to get useful criticism from that ... so I just sail on to the next post.
And that's as it should be Hell, that wouldn't have been posted unless the thread had entered page 1 squillion and hadn't already descended into nonsense that was going nowhere.....ably stoked from all quarters.
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Old 19-12-2011, 15:00   #266
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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Don,

Take it from a Westsailor (possibly one of the most contentious boats ever built).... You need to get over people slagging your boat/brand. It will lower your blood pressure and let you move on to more important things. You know, like raiding the multi board and attacking catamarans.

Just saying.

Maybe!

If someone comes across this in reseaching a Hunter, expecially a 410, they are welcome to PM me.
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Old 19-12-2011, 15:21   #267
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

The best boat to sail on "Blue Water" (or green water, or brown water or chartruese) is the one you're on. Dang, I've been reading these kinds of threads on various sites for over 10 years now and they always turn into this big long discussion with all kinds of opinions. If it gets you out and going and is safe in a blow then it's a blue water boat. Some are just more comfortable than other.
I'm currently building a new and very interesting catamaran in my shop. I know people will say I'm crazy when I take her down to the creek and sail away into the unknow. But you got to admit that two 40 foot ceder logs held apart with 4 x 4's 20 feet long it going to make for a lot of living space. Heck, my Coleman pop up tent is gonna sit right in the middle and I'm still gonna have room to hunt, fish and drink beer. My mast is gonna be one of those Cathedral Mast (made out of a cedar tree I'm still "curing") so I can lay it down to get under all the low water bridges between here and the "Blue Water". With my trusty coleman stove and a couple o dem high dollar coleman ice chest I should have enough beer to make it as far as I want to go. Will I have to have 2 laterns for lights or will just one be OK cause I don't wanna run down by them evil coasties I keep reading about. Seems like they'll stop ya fer just about anything. BTW.... ya think them judges will allow me enter it into one of them ARK races. I'm just dying to take this thing across the ocean!
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Old 20-12-2011, 10:45   #268
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

temperture and humidity affect all composite materials..if the weather is damp one day and then dry for a week I wonder if the boat laidup on the damp day is any different than others...and if so and they decide to build on a day that causes potential problems I would say that is not good quilty control..that could be one way of having a better build using the same materials and what if a company knowingly buys seconds or drops or millends and they use it as if it were first class ...there are a lot of companys that do this ..how are you going to know? you will know when the shiny comes off your stainless steel in flakes...bought a bunch of caribiners once and the guy swore they were Stubi...junk ,but looked good for six months...DVC
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Old 20-12-2011, 10:56   #269
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

My last post aside.... one thing that disturbs me about Hunters, and this is the first time I've ever mentioned it....
We looked at a Hunter passage that had always been a freshwater boat. It was beautiful inside and out and a little over 10 years old at the time. Flawless almost.... Then I was able to get behind an access panel that let me see the other side of the stainless steel arch that goes over the cockpit. It was NOT stainless steel and was already flaking apart in rusty pieces. It made me wonder what would happen it this boat had been exposed to salt water. For various reasons we didn't buy this boat. I won't get into all that here but since the quality of materials was mentioned I thought it would be interesting to bring this up....
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Old 20-12-2011, 11:33   #270
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Re: Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

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My last post aside.... one thing that disturbs me about Hunters, and this is the first time I've ever mentioned it....
We looked at a Hunter passage that had always been a freshwater boat. It was beautiful inside and out and a little over 10 years old at the time. Flawless almost.... Then I was able to get behind an access panel that let me see the other side of the stainless steel arch that goes over the cockpit. It was NOT stainless steel and was already flaking apart in rusty pieces. It made me wonder what would happen it this boat had been exposed to salt water. For various reasons we didn't buy this boat. I won't get into all that here but since the quality of materials was mentioned I thought it would be interesting to bring this up....
Never noticed it on a hunter ,but I have seen lots and lots on Tiawan boats and a few from Europe...
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