Boat Buying

[sjs]

Thanks for the references Jeff.

[Jeff H]

At first blush $300,000 is a very generous budget until you narrow down the size and age. I am not sure that I would limit your choices to 10 years old boats. 10 years is old enough that some refitting maybe necessary for the kind of hard use that you are proposing. When you get into that price and age the list gets a lot shorter. These would be boats that I like and which might suit your purposes.

Beneteau First 45F5:
I am a little reluctant to recommend this boat. These are very good sailing boats with a nice 'owner's layout'. There is a tremendous amount to like about these Farr designs including their price, but they are not as robust as I would like if I were planning the kind of trip you were making. Just the same, these boats are getting a lot of use in the Carribean and offshore.

Beneteau First 42s7 or 42p7 or 42f7:
Smaller, neater version of the 45F5 but all of the comments on the 45f5 apply.

Farr Custom:
While Bruce Farr is mainly thought of as a designer of race boats, his office has actually produced a lot of really wonderful custom cruising boats. They are a little rare in the States but they would be super for what you propose.

Halberg Rassey 45:
Very nice boats. While I have a lot of nit picks with these boats and they would not be my own personal favorite, these are extremely highly regarded for what you want to do. For me the teak decks are a deal breaker but many people prefer teak decks.

Halberg Rassey 42:
Same comments as the 45.

Hylas 45.5:
While considerably less desireable than the 46 these are still very good boats that would be well suited to your goals.

Hylas 46:
This would be near the top of this list. This is a German Frer's design that takes advantage of a lot of the best modern thinking. Each boat has a different custom layout so you if you don't like the layout of one, look at another. $300K is near the bottom of what these boats sell for.

J44:
I really love these boats. A shoal keeled J-44 would probably be my own personal first choice for my own use. These are really well rounded designs offering good speed and good offshore manners. A J-44 would need some build out, particularly increasing tankage on an earlier racing version. I would probably prefer the single head model which are substantially less expensive to buy.

J-130:
These would be a spartan way to go. They are good boats with excellent sailing ability. They can generally be purchased around $200K but will need some work to make them a distance cruiser. Still if you are looking for performance these would make a good choice. They are way to spartan for most people but I have always liked them. This one looks especially interesting http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/p...g_id=1448&url=

J-42:
These are a stretched version of the J-40. They have been optimized for distance cruising. They are not my fav but they are still very good boats.

Moody 44:
I don't have any real experience with these boats but they have always struck me as a nice design. Bill Dixon is one of these designers who always turns out godd solid work. Nothing extreme but good boats.

Sabre 425/426:
Very nice boats in almost all ways. Slightly on the coastal cruising side of the equation but not so far that I would worry.

Tartan 4600:
I generally like Tartans but I would not put the 4600 at the top here. These seem to be set up as large coastal cruisers rather than as offshore boats. I suspect that they are robust enough but layout and deck plan wise these are not as ideal as some of your other choices. I mention this one only to say that from my perspective I don't think it is a good choice.

Valiant 42:
These are really just Valiant 40's with a nose job. While these are purpose built for what you want to do, they are cramped and slow as compared to most of this list.

I need to get my butt to work, hopefully this will give you some ideas.

Good luck,
Jeff

[ellends]

Thanks so much Jeff. I really like the Hylas too but concerned about centre cockpit and motion, being higher than aft cockpit. Also what do you know about the hull construction of the Hylas?
Are you familiar with the Saga 43?
If you were going up to 400K what would you add to the list?
ellen

[Jeff H]

I am familiar with the Saga 43. I have some mixed emotions about these boats. There is a lot to like but but they are pretty ideosyncratic in ways that I see as less than ideal for an offshore cruiser. I have seen them underway in moderately high winds and frankly was not all that impressed. That said I am not sure how much of the problem that they were having was bad sail trim. (For example they had their traveler centered and it probably should have been dropped..)

More later,
Jeff

[ellends]

thanks Jeff
I look forward to hearing more when you have time
Ellen

[s/v Breakaway]

To chime in on good old boats for reasonable prices and Jeff's list - I bought a 1978 Cal 34 last year with plans to coastal and Bahamas cruise within the next year or two. I paid $20K, boat is basically solid, but had NO extras. I'm adding alot - new main, new cutlass bearing, interior fabrics and cushions, electronics, bow roller and CQR, new running rigging, dinghy, etc, etc. My research says the hulls are pretty beefy, but two structural things concern me: sufficiency of the bulkhead-to-hull tabbing and sufficiency of the standing rigging. The tabbing appears to only be two layers of cloth, so I've pretty much decided to grind off the paint and add one or two more layers wherever I can access it. On the 1978, the standing rigging is composed of a fore and aft stay, and only two shrouds per side each pair to a single substantial chainplate bolted through the main cabin bulkheads. Most other boats have three or so shrouds per side; I know you can't determine the strength of rigging just by looking at it, but it worries me.

Any comments on the standing rigging or the tabbing?

Also, Cal 34s have done blue water, see
http://www.aljian.com/mandolin/[/URL]

Thanks

[Jeff H]

The number of layers of tabbing is comparatively unimportant compared to the width of the tabbing. Main bulhead tabbing for a 34 footer should taper out onto the hull perhaps 6" either side of the joint. There should be a small fillet where the bulkhead meets the hull.

If I remember correctly Cal 34's have parrallel spreaders (vs swept back spreaders). A single upper and a single lower each side does not provide resistance to pumping in a seaway. It is not the strength of the shroud that is the problem it is the geometry and that is harder to alter.

Jeff

[s/v Breakaway]

Jeff, thank you for the input. The tabbing is only about 3" per side (6" total width) so it looks like a good idea to add a wide swath.

On the shouds, I'm not sure I was clear. There are two shrouds on each side - one from the mast head, and one that is attached starting just below the single, parallel spreader. Both go to a single large chainplate on each side. If this seems under rigged, can additional shrouds be added? I guess you recommend a professional rigger? I've heard Kip Kooledge at Chesapeake Rigging is good.

Thoughts, please? Thank you.

[Jeff H]

You were very clear. The shroud that starts at the masthead passes through the spreader tip and then is secured at the deck is the Upper shroud and the one that originates below the spreaders is the lower shroud. And you only have one upper shroud and one lower shroud on each side of the boat.

What I was saying is the mast is braced side to side by the combination of the upper and lower shrouds but because of the single attachment point at the deck and your parallel spreaders triangulation does not exist in the fore and aft aft which is necessary to prevent what is commonly called 'pumping', If your spreaders were raked aft, and your single attachment points were aft of the mast, then you could get by with a single lower and a single upper because the geometry would support the mast both amidships, and fore and aft. Which is why I said, It is not the strength of the shrouds that is the problem it is the geometry and that is harder to alter.



Chesapeake rigging is a very knowledgeable bunch. I also like Atlantic Spars and Rigging on Severn Avenue in Eastport.

Jeff

[oceaneyestoo]

What do you guys think is good in the $150K range .... what are your opinions about a Hunter Passage 420 or a Catalina 42 MK II I used to have a Catalina 30 and it stood by me in some rather rough weather

[ssullivan]

Ellen,

There is a nice couple I met in the Caribbean this past spring with a Hylas that is on the market. It's right in your price range, and the boat would be my first choice if I had the budget you have.

They just purchased a new multihull and have been looking to sell the Hylas for about 4 months now.

If I can link the two of you up personally, you could probably save a lot of money over going through a broker.

Would you be interested in speaking with them? I believe the boat is currently in the south east USA on the Gulf coast.

Let me know by sending a private message on this board to me, and I'll get you in touch with them.

Take Care,

Sean

ellends once whispered in the wind:
Thanks so much Jeff. I really like the Hylas too but concerned about centre cockpit and motion, being higher than aft cockpit. Also what do you know about the hull construction of the Hylas?
Are you familiar with the Saga 43?
If you were going up to 400K what would you add to the list?
ellen

[Wirsegeln]

This is really funny ... to see you guys discussing something like older boats, the material used at that time and so on. Instead to be more concern about security and the way to improve what ever needs to be improved on the boat. Sorry ... I just sailed in the Mediterranean area, close to the Moroccan coast, got chased by "official pirates" and to be honest my concern was still always safety, security and never about the look of a boat or similar. I don't want to be a party popper ... but really be a little more concern about how to enjoy your sailing trip, to be of some service to some one else have fun and just take care of your boat.

[Richard Jordan]

I really like the Hylas too but concerned about centre cockpit and motion, being higher than aft cockpit. Also what do you know about the hull construction of the Hylas?

I would not say the main trade-off with a center cockpit is motion, especially here with the Hylas 46. On wedding cake like center cockpit designs, the worry is the motion and windage from a higher cockpit compared to an aft cockpit. But, the Hylas 46 is pretty low profile, and the cockpit is not high up. Aft cockpits can be high up too for instance in some aft cockit-aft stateroom designs. The universal trade-off with a center cockpit is leeward visibility. The sailplan blocks your view more than in an aft cockpit. You pay this cost of visibility above deck for the accomodations below deck.

As far as hull construction, Hylases are built by Queen Long Marine, arguably the finest yard in Taiwan. The hull is solid glass or sometimes even Twaran, a Kevlar like paramid. The decks these days are Baltek cored but used to be end grain balsa or Airex. Queen Long seemed to switch between the two. More commonly the core is balsa. The hull-deck joint is the standard flange though bolted on six inch centers, glued with 5200, and tabbed in from below. These procedures are pretty standard for all the highest quality yards.

Hylas 45.5:
While considerably less desireable than the 46 these are still very good boats that would be well suited to your goals.

These 45.5's are 44's with sugar scoop sterns glassed on. You should be careful on these as some of the 45.5's were post-factory modifications. Queen Long only made nine true 45.5's from 1992-1994. Earlier model 45.5's are really factory 44's, and you should verify the work is quality done. Whatever the build, 45.5's are in high demand and rarely last long on the market.

Hylas 46:
This would be near the top of this list. This is a German Frer's design that takes advantage of a lot of the best modern thinking. Each boat has a different custom layout so you if you don't like the layout of one, look at another. $300K is near the bottom of what these boats sell for.

You might find an early model for under $300k, but most sell in the $300k to $400k range. Sailaway for a new 46 is $575k - not a bad price compared to other manufacturers. Compared to the 45.5, the 46 Hylas has a modern cabintrunk with larger portholes along with a portside pullman layout instead of the berth forward. Of course, these layouts are custom as Jeff_h notes. For instance, the navigation station can be transverse or longitudinal.

[sailerbg]

Originally Posted by BC Mike

Interesting that sailing ability is not to be considered, at least not on this list. Resale value comes before sailing ability?? I will agree that safety should be at the top. What people actually ask about when buying a boat. Amount of space in the forward diddly room, toilet, cooking area, colour. These are usual responses when you ask what they are looking for or when shown a boat. I did not sell any boats over 30 feet so the responses may be different for bigger boats. BC Mike C

hey bc mike, i am in the process of buying a boat and was told that sailing ability is really important, perhaps you can help me. given the same conditons of wind and skipper ability, would there be much difference in comparing a 36ft catalina to a 36ft C&C same on the same tack?

[hellosailor]

bg, if you are just trying to get a rough idea for how the speed of two boats compares, look for PHRF fleet ratings for the two models. PHRF numbers sometimes mislead, but they generally will tell you that in overall conditions for that area, how the boats compare for speed.

The flaw in PHRF is that there is no compensation for wind speed affecting performance, but that's something you can infer from the changes in different PHRF fleets, i.e. in San Francisco you can assume they're sailing in heavier winds than the Chesapeake or LI Sound.