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Old 19-11-2015, 07:36   #61
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Re: ARC 2015

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post

(...)

The Halberg Rassy is an old design but it showed here that can be still be sailed reasonably fast. A boat with a well deserved good reputation. The Laurin 32 did not that bad, arriving about 5 hours earlier than the Halberg Rassy but with more 11.5 hours on the engine. Also a good old boat.
Big boats have gensets. Small ones hardly ever. Allow for this when you think of engine hours used on the passage.

The Laurin sailed 6 days at 147 miles a day. This is top shelf performance from an older styled monohull of her size. Wind direction was a huge factor here. They will be less lucky towards West Indies.

Unfortunately, on depart from CV part of the fleet sailed SW, possibly allowing for some wx forecast kink that showed no direct W window for slower boats (only my guess from my wx routing work at other times). I will look up the tracker later see how these did. Normally you sail out W up first to get out of the turbulence, only then adjust your course for the forecast at hand.

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Old 19-11-2015, 07:45   #62
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Re: ARC 2015

I have seen this Azurree in the boatyard. Pretty obvious print-thru (which may be part of the vacuuming process, if she is vacuum build). Otherwise very pretty and well put together. I talked to the guy doing the bottom job and I could glance the keel interface area which clearly is flexible on this design. I have seen flexible keel interfaces in racing boats before but apparently this philosophy has been drifting into the cruising segment now. A grid linked keel probably eliminates this (?) Hence my guess no grid on Azzuree.

Given the visual supremacy of the Azzuree over the More, how do they stack up price wise?

I still see no Brunel here. Must fire up our AIS and see if she is docked elsewhere.

One of the new Moodies is still here. Not my pair of socks BUT looks an improvement over the early models. This kind of design sort of grows on you, just like the Lagoon thing.

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Old 19-11-2015, 08:30   #63
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Re: ARC 2015

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Big boats have gensets. Small ones hardly ever. Allow for this when you think of engine hours used on the passage.
....
b.
Yes I agree. Probably some small engine hours (4 for example) on smaller boats are due only to the use of engine to charge batteries. On an extended passage, as the next one, those charging hours will be more, till 12 or something like that.

The Azuree has a great price for quality but as I said, I never saw anything like the More in what regards price quality, at least regarding what is advertised. The Azuree 46 has a price slightly above mass production boats like Beneteau Oceanis but the More is actually cheaper than an Oceanis 55.

The interior of the Azuree is a very nice one, with good quality. I expect the one of the Moore to have a bit less quality, on par with Beneteaus and jeanneaus. The boat is going to be at Dusseldorf and I will not miss it. Then I will be able to talk about that.
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Old 19-11-2015, 08:45   #64
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Re: ARC 2015

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Just had the 2016 sailing conversation with the missus and she is very happy with my ARC suggestion, so I'm allowed to book. Need to talk to potential crew before I decide if we do ARC or ARC+
Well If you join the ARC + we'll see you there.

Perhaps a little informal side bet on who arrives first? A Sun Fast 40.3 against a Sun Odyssey 40.3?

Say a round of beer to the winning crew? (and no fair dredging up a couple of hundred beach sailors and say "this is my crew")
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Old 19-11-2015, 10:54   #65
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Re: ARC 2015

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Well If you join the ARC + we'll see you there.

Perhaps a little informal side bet on who arrives first? A Sun Fast 40.3 against a Sun Odyssey 40.3?

Say a round of beer to the winning crew? (and no fair dredging up a couple of hundred beach sailors and say "this is my crew")
If we go on the ARC+ then 2 bets (one per leg of course) will be a must. We're the 40 not the 40.3. I'm guessing that the SF probably has no real advantage over the SO
on the downwind.
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Old 19-11-2015, 11:40   #66
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Re: ARC 2015

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Yes I agree. Probably some small engine hours (4 for example) on smaller boats are due only to the use of engine to charge batteries. On an extended passage, as the next one, those charging hours will be more, till 12 or something like that.

The Azuree has a great price for quality but as I said, I never saw anything like the More in what regards price quality, at least regarding what is advertised. The Azuree 46 has a price slightly above mass production boats like Beneteau Oceanis but the More is actually cheaper than an Oceanis 55.

The interior of the Azuree is a very nice one, with good quality. I expect the one of the Moore to have a bit less quality, on par with Beneteaus and jeanneaus. The boat is going to be at Dusseldorf and I will not miss it. Then I will be able to talk about that.
You have not seen their fridges and freezers, have you? ;-) And their APs? Etc. Believe me or not, but only a vegetarian boat can cross with few engine hours. 99.9% of cruisers are meat-eaters and this meat is traveling in devices powered by gensets (and by alternators, where gensets are absent). Te idea is not to enjoy nature and listen to the wind anymore. (has it ever been?) Today it is all about transporting frozen meat from one side of the ocean to the other. Sailing is only an excuse.

The above only 50% jokingly. Frozen meat and beer supplies on the dock can at times truly shock a less gluttonous onlooker.

There was nothing on More (outwardly) that would justify any surprises in the price - plain Selden / Lewmar / etc. combo as seen on any other boat in the low price bracket. Given this, their savings must be elsewhere: labour, corporate finance, materials, taxes, etc. If you think of Bavaria or Bene (generic) than these companies are already at the bleeding edge of capital efficiency sword. I would not pitch my own company against Bavaria, especially any new company that does not benefit from years of adjustments and with the buffer of actually building testing prototypes.

If Pixel crew are open to my implied suggestions, I may get onboard and get some feeling of what the boat is inside. They are at a dock where two ocean kayakers are too with whom I like to chat of sailing, navigation and fear.

I will post again when I find any new food for boat loving eyes.

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Old 19-11-2015, 13:02   #67
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Re: ARC 2015

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You have not seen their fridges and freezers, have you? ;-) And their APs? Etc. Believe me or not, but only a vegetarian boat can cross with few engine hours. 99.9% of cruisers are meat-eaters and this meat is traveling in devices powered by gensets (and by alternators, where gensets are absent). Te idea is not to enjoy nature and listen to the wind anymore. (has it ever been?) Today it is all about transporting frozen meat from one side of the ocean to the other. Sailing is only an excuse.

The above only 50% jokingly. Frozen meat and beer supplies on the dock can at times truly shock a less gluttonous onlooker.

There was nothing on More (outwardly) that would justify any surprises in the price - plain Selden / Lewmar / etc. combo as seen on any other boat in the low price bracket. Given this, their savings must be elsewhere: labour, corporate finance, materials, taxes, etc. If you think of Bavaria or Bene (generic) than these companies are already at the bleeding edge of capital efficiency sword. I would not pitch my own company against Bavaria, especially any new company that does not benefit from years of adjustments and with the buffer of actually building testing prototypes.

If Pixel crew are open to my implied suggestions, I may get onboard and get some feeling of what the boat is inside. They are at a dock where two ocean kayakers are too with whom I like to chat of sailing, navigation and fear.

I will post again when I find any new food for boat loving eyes.

b.
I will not say here what I said on my blog but what can make More a less expensive boat is that is not made by a boat building company but by a charter company that has already commands for the first 10 boats.

I think they will be more than happy to receive you. I bet those are the guys from the Charter company and the owners of the business so they should be more than interested in showing you the sailboat.

Yes, there are the guys that run generators and the ones that don't. Remember that contrary to the ARC+ there are some performance boats like the Sunfast 3600, two Pogo 12.50, a First 40, a Marten 68, a Knierim 49, a Felci 10.26, a Carrol Marine 60, two First 47.7, a Luffe 37, two Pogo 12.50, a Pogo 50, a Reflex 38, Salona 37, A Pogo40S2, a VOR65, a Xp44, a Arcona 460, a Arcona 430, a Maestro 40, a salona 37, a winner 12 a contessa 32, a Dufour 40e, a Finngulf 46, probably those will not have a genset and many would not run the engine either.

Many would rely on a hydro generator that is what solo racers use and provide a lot of energy with little drag (a pity they are so expensive). I bet the skippers on those boats those like to have fun sailing, like the guys on some fast cats, like on a brand new Outremer 51 and a the Neel 45? probably they don't have a genset too.

Most of the cats are on the ARC+ but not many performance cats among them, only two, like here, if we can consider the Neel 45 a performance boat..... it remains to be seen.
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Old 19-11-2015, 13:07   #68
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Re: ARC 2015

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If we go on the ARC+ then 2 bets (one per leg of course) will be a must. We're the 40 not the 40.3. I'm guessing that the SF probably has no real advantage over the SO
on the downwind.

I will be interesting to find out. There will only be the two of us in our crew, so if you're adding some more, you should have an advantage
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Old 19-11-2015, 14:18   #69
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Re: ARC 2015

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I thought I was pretty clear, if a wife does not know how to sail and know little about sailboats it would be seduced by the big all around view of a cat, the bigger cockpit space and the easy transition from the saloon to the cockpit.

If she knows about sailing and sailing boats her preference for a cat regarding a monohull would not be different from any other sailor and she will judge, like the husband, the advantages of the two types of boats and regarding that judgement, most sailors prefer monohulls.

I know of couples were the wife is by far the better sailor and I had given you the example of my wife, that not only knows how to sail as she knows one or two things about sailboats. From the two I am the one that would consider having a cat. She don't even want to talk about that.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But your opinion does not create fact. As you admit, most can't afford a catamaran, but yet you claim the difference in sailing performance is the deciding factor for most sailors. Pure speculation on your part.

My wife knows how to sail a monohull and she knows how to sail a catamaran. She prefers the catamaran because the numerous positives of cruising on catamaran over a monohull far outweigh the perceived performance difference when sailing upwind. Any other point of sail is better on the catamaran. But for a cruiser, sailing is only one aspect. You certainly are good at not discussing other attributes of the cruising boat lifestyle.
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Old 19-11-2015, 15:11   #70
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Re: ARC 2015

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You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But your opinion does not create fact. As you admit, most can't afford a catamaran, but yet you claim the difference in sailing performance is the deciding factor for most sailors. Pure speculation on your part.

My wife knows how to sail a monohull and she knows how to sail a catamaran. She prefers the catamaran because the numerous positives of cruising on catamaran over a monohull far outweigh the perceived performance difference when sailing upwind. Any other point of sail is better on the catamaran. But for a cruiser, sailing is only one aspect. You certainly are good at not discussing other attributes of the cruising boat lifestyle.
I don't understand from what you get all that stuff that you say I have said, but it was not certainly in what regards the concerned subject that was this statement of another poster:
"truth is: no wife likes monos"

That implies that all wives prefer cats to monos. I explained why that is not true and said, that if a sailor, a wife, as any sailor, will have her own judgement criteria regarding advantages and disadvantages regarding a monohull versus a cat and some will chose cats, others will chose monohulls. This is not an opinion, it is a fact.

This thread is about the ARC and ARC+, that has cats and monohulls and if you want to post about that you are welcomed but if you want to discuss the advantages of cats over monohulls and vice-versa open a thread about that or post on one of the many threads about the subject. Not here.
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Old 20-11-2015, 08:56   #71
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Re: ARC 2015

While we wait the ARC to start you can have a look at my blog where I made a detailed post about some of the fastest performance cruisers that will be making the ARC and their prices:
They start on the 750 000 euros of the Outremer 51 and end up on the Pogo 12.50 (253 498 euros) passing by the 295 500 euros that costs the More 55. Off course this are base prices, all boats decently equipped cost more.

Another two interesting but very different sailboats that will be doing the ARC and that I am curious about the performance:


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Old 20-11-2015, 16:01   #72
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Re: ARC 2015

I have been saying on forums that in Europe most sailors that have the money to do so change of boat, trading it for a more modern one, each 5 to 7 years, in average. In what regards this Europeans do with boats a boat the same thing that they do with cars, in what regards trading them for new models.

This seems to be an alien idea to Americans that tend to buy a boat for life, or at least for many years, even when they have the money for trading for a new one. They tend also to "personalise" the boats having an affection for them that I don't think most Europeans share. I have even heard sailors talking of love, regarding the affection for their boats.

I am not interested in discussing this, neither I am interested if it is "right" or "wrong" or in advantages or disadvantages, I am only talking about this because some interesting data regarding the ARC seems to confirm what I have been saying regarding the average age of european boats, among the ones that have the means to change of boats regularly.

Of course, the average age of the boats is a very good indicator of the time period sailors change of boats, particularly among ARC skippers that are not skippers on their first boat.

Curiously the newer boats on the ARC are the multihulls. I confessed that the data has even surprised me: From the 21 multihulls that will sail the ARC only one does not disclose the year, there are 8 boats from 2015, 9 from 2014 to 2011, 2 from 2010 to 2000 and 1 older than 1999 (1997).

85% of the multihulls have less than 4 years and only one has more than 15 years, and not much more.

Tomorrow I will have a look at the average age of monohulls doing the ARC.
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Old 21-11-2015, 05:59   #73
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Re: ARC 2015

Let's look at the monohull's age. I have no information regarding the racing division, but anyway I am more interested in the cruising division, where most of the boats are.

Total number of sailing boats 135.
Boats with two years or less: 24%
Boats with more than 2 years and less than 8: 28%
Boats with more than 8 years and less than 15: 25%
Boats with more than 15 years and less than 23: 10%
Boats with more than 24 years of age: 13%

Number of boats with less than 8 years of age are 52%
Number of boats with less than 15 years of age are 77%
Number of boats with more than 24 years of age 13%

These numbers relates with what normally an European sailor call an old boat. I had noticed that Europeans and Americans are not talking about boats with the same age when they talk about old boats or recent boats.

I would say that an European will say that a boat is recent if it is less than 5 or 6 year's old, that is not an old boat if it has less than 15 years of age, that older then that starts to be looked as very far from recent and that anything over 20 is considered old.

Off course this is only average, I would say that the ones that prefer cats or performance boats will tend to consider older younger boats and that the ones that prefer heavier slower cruisers will tend to consider as not old, older boats.

But for what I have been seen here and on Sailnet, where the opinions are a lot more conservative, for many Americans a 15 year old boat is considered fairly recent, a 20 year old boat is not old and for some not even a 30 year old boat is considered old.

I believe that this different views on sailboats (again not interested in discussing who is "right" or "wrong", only in facts) are on the root regarding many disagreements regarding the quality and durability of sailboats on this forum.

By the way, the ARC starts tomorrow
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Old 21-11-2015, 11:16   #74
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Re: ARC 2015

A fast look to the ARC+:

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The big monos seem to be leading (Shipman 62, X612, Swan 651), the big cats seems not to be a match, even if some are brand new ( 2 Fountain Pajot Victoria 67, a Catana 582, a Fountain Pajot 57) and the only one that remains not far is a smaller Catana 472, the faster among the cats.

The Lagoon 38 continues to go well, but not so well as on the first leg and has 4 bigger cats ahead and a Leopard 44 chasing him.

On the first leg I was complaining that there was not small performance cruisers on this ARC, besides the Azuree 46, now there is a First 40, that had not made the first leg. The First 40 is sailing at about the same pace as the Lagoon 38.

There is a Leopard 48 going strong, as well as the Azuree 46 and surprisingly also the Southerly 49. The Southerly 49 is "Distant Shores", they live on the boat (that has to be heavy on account of that) and they are not known to be racers but cruisers. Chapeau to them.

Some images of them on the 2013 ARC, sailing alongside a big Lagoon:

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Old 21-11-2015, 15:58   #75
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Re: ARC 2015

Tomorrow there is another strong Ruski boat named Weddel. She looks like she can fly. The guys onboard are super nice. There is a cream looking Farr 60 too and a handful of other toys. The Pogo 50 seems another boat, much improved over the prototype. Today I had a good look at Brunel, Bliss and Neel. When I got to Pixel she was full up of preparateurs busy doing their thing, so no luck peeking below deck. Maybe next time.

The forecast is for a fantastic spinnaker start in 15 to 20 knots. I will be there unless it rains fishes.

The take off is very interesting tactics-wise as the boats that will manage to cut W as early as possible will have the upper hand. Also the start line is quite amazing as it will be nearly a beam reach before they can bear off to head for the airport. And then there is the zone where many will resolve to reef down but the racers will just fly thu it (possibly breaking something) ;-) Then they will get a fast and furious 36 maybe 48 hours. I hope they will not throw the bags overboard.

Bueno. Good luck and fair winds to everybody in the fleet!

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