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Old 09-06-2006, 19:26   #16
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This is much more simple than you guys are trying to make it.
Cruisers have no clout. How many cruisers are residents of Miami Beach? Probably none. So they have no voice in Miami Beach. Cruisers have no significant positive impact on the local economy, even counting the money spent at marine supply and grocery stores. So the people who pay taxes locally have the ear of the local politicians and they get their way. This has virtually no connection to the national government other than the national government has decided to allow it to continue, allowing 'home rule'.
What really needs to happen is for some well connected lawyer to take up the cause and file suit against one of these municipalities for running off some cruiser. But I doubt that will ever happen.
It's also local politicians who are encouraging more coastal development to get more local tax revenue.
All politics are local.
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Old 09-06-2006, 19:29   #17
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Kai Nui, YES YES... far more attention (legislative) is put on the boating community than we warrent by the critiria the politicians generally use. ($$$) Governments seem particulary uncomfortable with the life stlye example of a cruising yacht community. For years I have been asking people what word they would use to explain the attraction to boats if they could only use one word... the big winner? Freedom! No surprise to you I am sure but why is it that the politicians that wrap themselves in flags and utter the magic word once a second come election time seem in such opposition in fact? Power?? Maybe power to define the word in terms they don't want people to know? It's not like we are taking a resource that someone else wants, a thing or real estate. Why do they really care on a practical level. A cruising boat does not "displace" a local and if you look in an art gallery, you find boats/ships at anchore a favourite subject... a thing of beauty. It is on a philysophical level then.

On a silly note, I wrote a humour piece a couple years ago ridiculing the enforcers of the new regimes and explaining their motivation.... if you think capn Bob was rude.... I can't believe I wasn't jailed/gaoled for it! I might post it to the web later and let you know. For anyone who has had the goons approach their boat, it may be funny and satisfying!

Cheers

Bob
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Old 09-06-2006, 20:27   #18
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OK... I did it! but don't say I didn't warn you.... this is a crude one.
http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/penis_envy.html

Chhers

Bob
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Old 09-06-2006, 20:42   #19
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Some of that story sounds like one of my old jokes about the size of a man.

That's one way to really get a another man ticked off really quick!!
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Old 10-06-2006, 00:23   #20
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hey cpn K how ya goin.....

well that was the idea. the ones who were intractable would be pissed off and so have some satisfaction from that and the others may start thinking about what they are doing and how the community is thinking of them...... People at the bottom end of an authortarian regime are often decent people who have been conditioned to respect authority no matter what....sometimes they need a wake up call.

This may inspire another page to put up...I'll let you know.

Cheers

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Old 10-06-2006, 06:43   #21
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"I love my country, while fearing my government"
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Old 10-06-2006, 07:20   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion1
"I love my country, while fearing my government"
Kinda says it all.
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Old 10-06-2006, 07:40   #23
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Where is that Petition, I too will sign it? The big money is taking over everything and in the process destroying the flavor and charector that make certain places very special to so many.

Even many of those who applaud and benefit financially will deplore what they have created in time, and long for the character which they have destroyed. Like trying to rid ones self of an unwanted tatoo after the fact. Never pretty.

Now in KeyWest, they have banned the free chickens at last, using the bird flu, to scare the people, who were always in favor of the chickens before. The money has finally fooled the people.
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Old 10-06-2006, 07:48   #24
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Putting the philosophical arguments aside for a moment... as I've considered this problem it seems to me that we have only two forms of leverage to use in this situation (or any situation for that matter): We either
a) exercise our economic leverage (boater bucks is but one method)
or b) exercise political leverage by becoming an organized voting block.

Ideally we would use both simultaneously and consistently. But let's think beyond these 2 obvious points.....

Consider groups such as AARP, MOAA and even Good Sam. How did they get started? What strategic partnerships did they make that enabled them to wield influence?

Consider a global organization whose membership came from the boating community at large. Associations and alliances with manufacturers and manufacturers associations could be formed. Some random thoughts of what might be accomplished or undertaken by the group:
- form an insurance cooperative to drive down the cost of coverage
- partner with state and local environmental groups to restore fish habitat, promote "clean wake" policies like SSCA, provide artificial reef services by donating or sanitizing derelict craft to be sunk
- provide public mooring maintenance services to help remove the argument used in San Diego that eliminating the free anchorage area would save taxpayer $$

I'm only scratching the surface here with some obvious methods. I'm sure there are many in the boating community with the skills we would need to get this off the ground. How many retired lawyers read this forum? How many marine engineers?

Anyone want to give this a go?

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Old 10-06-2006, 08:42   #25
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Mark - OMG - possible solutions??!!!??? I thought this was the place where we just carped about things? :-D

I think that it would be interesting to find out how some of the organizations formed and the partnerships they were able to forge. But, I think that I'll first try and get a handle on the types of boats and owners on the West Coast and see what kind of 'voting block' that could possibly be.

Some of the areas are:
1a) How many boaters have boats in the same voting district as where they live?
1b) How many voters (all) are in the voting district(s) where coastal boats are?

2) Of all the boat(ers) with coastal access, how many:
a) Ever see their boat
b) Take their boat out at least 4 times a year (at least 1 mile)
c) Anchor anyplace
d) Stay out overnight (not just on the boat - but somewhere other than their normal mooring/slip)
e) Go somewhere other than their local area (I heard that - IN THEIR BOAT !)

Just sampling my local area (Conditions: least expensive marina in the district, mixed sail & power, observed over a two year period, three of 15 docks, 35 to 45 foot lenghts, approximately 90 boats)

Found:
1. 55 Boats that have not gone out more than once (usually to the yard) (7 of the 35 are fishing boats)
2. 23 (including the 7 fishing boats) that go out frequently enough to be noticed.
3. 14 Boats that appear to be barely afloat/or trashed on the outside
4. 45 - 50 of the boats have Out-of-district owners ( I don't know how many of those are in another coastal district - at least 5 that I know of are)
5. 12 are legal liveaboards, 15 are illegal liveaboards
6. Of the 205,000+/- people living in Ventura County, 96,000 are registered voters - only 30,000 voted last Tuesday. (figures rounded) - I don't have the figures for the harbor district - but, interpolation would indicate ... I know of two other boaters on these three docks that voted on Tuesday ( I make three).

Looking at these demographics for this small sampling is discouraging. Anyone do any better where they are?
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Old 10-06-2006, 16:40   #26
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very good disscusion.... Markpj23 you made some particulary thoughtful points . As far as raw numbers in voting blocks, my observations suggest that political effect isn't tied to numbers as much as noise. Thats the way the system works. Thats how come people who love their country can have a government they fear. Equating noise with leveridge, then it's a matter of finding the most leveridge and then finding the best way to apply it.
Pollution laws have been a tool governments have used to clear out boats. As I recall thats how they cleaned out a whole community of livaboards in the south end of SD bay (San Yisidro end) in the seventies when that had been a free anchorage. TCP stopped that in Queensland for the time being. The laws are still on the books though not enforced for now... My advertisers complain they sell few of their treatment or composting systems in Queensland cause of me but the state is still in better position. I can't put the fires out as fast as they can light em but it does show that the publicity concerns them.
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Old 10-06-2006, 16:58   #27
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Bob - good point about the squeeky wheel getting the oil - but that is only valid up to a point - a lot depends on WHO is doing the squeeking.

When the majority of the protesting folk, who have showed up at a hearing or meeting to protest the removal of anchorages and other liberties, are dressed shabbily, or their boats look like derelicts, or, they are not registered voters (they know because the PTB often ask speakers), the PTB will not give them much consideration.

And, while I agree that appearance shouldn't be a consideration, I think that we KNOW that it is. And, too often, the people who wish to speak (in protest) are not very articulate, organized, or prepared. They tend to come off as ranters, rather than people who are concerned and wish to protest a course of action.

With all that said - I do believe that if there is an issue, of concern to a group of people who organize and present a united front ( well thought out arguements, logical flow, presentable appearances), that it can be effective in getting greater consideration from the PTB.
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Old 10-06-2006, 17:20   #28
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Thomas;
You also have to look at the people working in the dockyards, people involved in building and selling boats, parts stores, etc.

Get the manufacturers involved in this fight.

Negative noise may start to cut into boat sales, so make negative noise until you get the brokers, builders, and other no goods involved and then start working together to solve the problem. If they don't want to get involved then continue with the negative. Try to get some news stories published. STP Bob has a wonderful publication. Has good useful information and serves as a centerpoint to anarchy.

Fight on Thomas, for the realist adjusts the sails...(I saw that someplace)...

ps: your last post came in while I was writing this, but that's okay, it's still valid I think.
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Old 10-06-2006, 17:57   #29
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It is a shame, but the only way for cruisers to get the attention of resident politicians is to make the cost of harrassing boaters too high to be feasible. I can file suit against the town for costs incurred as a result of their interference with my right to anchor for a few bucks. What does it cost them to defend a nuisance suit? Well, lawyers get $200 plus per hour. If I lose it cost me the price of the small claim; if I win they pay the court cost, my losses and their lawyer. Can these towns afford to expend this money for a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand such suits? I think not. Other than costing the town a lot of money defending themselves, there is no practical way for a non voter to effect the local government.
You may think this idea to be heavy handed, but this is what the government is doing by having the local marine patrol, sheriff's department, etc. waste your time and money.
As a lawyer once said to me " I can sue you for a lot less money than you can defend yourself".
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Old 10-06-2006, 18:44   #30
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Greetings "Elusive" Yes, I agree. A poorly articulated/presented arguement or arguer does harm rather than good.

"Jentine" I agree, trying to pick off one issue at a time through the courts is a tough go. The ptb have all the advantages in that venue. Can make progress but hard. Better to create a situation where they don't want to even touch the community for fear of reaction. To that end I have been active......
"Deepfrz" yes, I have thought of that. I paste below an excerpt from the editorial in my last paper;

"The boating industry has been experiencing an unprecedented boom, so perhaps can be forgiven for not standing up for their clients of late but TCP warns all parties now; unless my reading of the boaties is wrong (it hasn’t been so far) a coming economic downturn coupled with ridiculous over-regulation could seriously damage the industry. So wake up down there! Our mates in government are fast eroding the reasons people have always bought boats. Unless you tinny/yacht/equipment makers have plans to shift into production of surveillance and military gear you better get off your ass. And boating publications? Peter Scott of Go Boating has shown back bone. Good on yer. I read an editorial in Trade-a-Boat that was critical of Victorian regulators so I figure there is intelligent life out there but from the rest of the boating press?? A quote from the late Dr. Martin Luther King comes to mind; “In the end , we will remember not the words of our enemies but the silence of our friends.”"

You'll notice I aslo went after the other boating publications to shame them into taking a stand and it is working. Their stand is skin deep and they have been dragged into it kicking and screaming but even the sold out to government mags are having to protest lately. The mags mentioned above, BTW are not in the kicking screaming catagory.

Cheers all
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