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Old 10-06-2006, 17:45   #31

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WRT starting an insurance company? Old news:
"The term mutual denotes a company that is owned by its policyholders instead of by stockholders. These companies return part of their profits to policyholders as dividends."

Yes, there were and are insurance companies owned by their policyholders. The idea is that you pool your funds, specify your own terms, and win or lose together. Anyone can start one--IF you think you can really offer better rates once you've done the math, and IF you can get the right members to join.

But much as I hate to say it, crusiers usually are transients and in this world, transients don't make the rules that governs the residents. If you want to change anchoring rights--that's delusional unless you think you can outvote the residents (oh, right, transients have no right to vote) or you think you can set a new national policy, which will need an awful good reason to confiscate the property rights of all those residents.

That's what happens when you decide to become a full-time transient instead of a resident and property owner. Anywhere. It's easy enough to change.
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Old 10-06-2006, 18:37   #32
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You know, if everyone threw up their hands and said impossible, nothing would ever change. I write to politicians and I write to magazine editors and I phone or email talk shows. I'm not sure that I have changed much but if I make them think one little bit then it was worth the effort. If everyone voted with thier email then things just might change. When a politician makes a stand for something you feel is right, send them a kudos. If they are silent or stand for something that you strongly disagree with, send them a RAZZBERRY...

If some organization is working on your behalf, support them.

If some organization is working against you, let them know that you think they are off track and make sure you don't support them.

Unfortunately we can't get away with withholding taxes, however we can send email to the "political elite" to let them know what we think of them or their policies. You may get the odd strange phone call, but that just may be part of the price of freedom of speech.

Make sure what you are protesting is important to you and then throw your weight behind it. That is the meaning of democracy.

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Old 10-06-2006, 18:52   #33

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"You know, if everyone threw up their hands and said impossible, " There's a difference between throwing up your hands, and choosing your battles. You can make all the noise you want, sent all the letters you want, but the bottom line is that politicians may appease the voters (the residents) but they sure aren't gonna ANTAGONIZE the voters just to please some transients passing through.

And given the history of property rights and transients in the US (and most of the world) unless you can come up with some novel theory of why transients deserve the ability to live in private property, or why allowing them to anchor where and as they please would be to the public benefit...

You'd only be following the lubberly tradition of pissing in the wind. Railing at the gods. Hauling coal to Newcastle. Building castles in the sand.

First, figure out some reason besides "I want". Then and only then, does it stand a chance of being anything besides a wasted effort. "I want" goes into the round file, unless you can back it up.

Now, if you hooked up your position thrusters to a GPS and nav computer and managed to hold your position without anchoring--that would mightily piss off the residents, but since you wouldn't be anchoring, you'd probably be able to stay there forever.
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Old 11-06-2006, 06:49   #34

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I'm sad to say it.... but...

Here's my 2 cents on the anchoring problems:

I'm sad to say it, but I think it's a losing battle, no matter if your organize or not. The RVers didn't win anything. We won't either.

The problem is, as so many have put it, that the rich and powerful will always get whatever they want, while cruisers/liveaboards do not have the power to fight it, or get what they want.

The *ONLY* solution is to leave.

You can't change things. You can only change yourself. Bail out and head for places unknown. You can't stay in a populated area, for it's PEOPLE that are the problem.

Go to vast, un-visited wilderness spots. How to make money there... I have no idea... but it's the only place you can anchor for free unless you hop and skip around on a weekly basis.
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Old 11-06-2006, 06:54   #35

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Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Make sure what you are protesting is important to you and then throw your weight behind it. That is the meaning of democracy.

Sorry... couldn't help it... ha ha:

I thought the demcracy, as defined in Webster's was:

The thin veiling of a caste system in which there is little to no chance for upward mobility, dominated by large corporations and those with wealth.
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:34   #36
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So many points of discussion - not sure where to begin...

I agree that on a local level this may not yeild the numbers of interested boaters we would need to become an effective voting block. However, certainly at the state level this would be possible.

Too tough a nut to crack? I think not... Consider that a local ballot initiative or recall petition can be placed on the ballot in most jurisdictions with relative ease. You need an organized group to gather petition signatures and some well-placed & thoughtful advertisements / press releases. Then once on the ballot, remember that average turnout for local elections is a dismal 15% - 25% of registered voters. Extrapolate from there and you can see light at the end of the tunnel.

Even when ballot proposals will cost people money - as in Bond initiatives, local sales tax increases, etc - voter turnout is small. The key is to make sure that those groups who DO vote understand your referendum and purpose. And with industry backing perhaps an ad campaign could sway enough voters to win approval.

This is how a minority of voters can impose their will upon the majority... the key understanding is that the 'majority' of voters are not involved in the political process at the local level. The system is in place for those who are savvy enough to make use of it.

To say that the RV'ers have not accomplished anything is wrong in my view. Several parks have started to discriminate among Class 'C' owners vs Class 'A' owners, and the interest magazines have started to raise a stink. Now the manufacturers are involved in fighting this too - since they now offer some pretty fancy 40ft Class C rigs and realize that sales will suffer if those rigs are discriminated against.

The key is having the vision, strategy, alliances and resources that will succeed. Voting block leverage and economic leverage....
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Old 11-06-2006, 13:45   #37
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there are so many good points and observations posted on this thread.. It's such a big subject!
Cruising yachties have been maligned by the American media so long I can't remember when it wasn't but it was just a few years ago in Australia that yachties were still well thought of. (All in general terms of course) We have our Kay Cottee's and Jessie Martin's and a very visible cruising community in a country where 90% of the population lives within spitting distance of a harbour. The government has been making every effort to diminish the image of cruisers by painting the community as polluters and negligent operators needing regulation to protect the rest of the community. (the good people) This has succeded to a degree to isolate boaties from a potential support base and I think this is a key. (another one) I believe that the government wishes to isolate boaties from the environmental community in particular, a group that should naturaly be allied. They have portrayed boaties as 'takers' and bums when in fact we take nothing but do spend our savings where ever we go. Anybody ever consider how good the "toy runs" have been for the image of the bikie community/clubs/gangs/whatever?

I think it is important to keep the faith and gather community support. I've had a proposed radio spot and a poster on the "issues" section of my web site for some time. Watching reaction, tracking interest. And now reading and participating in this very good thread. I am pleased to see the degree of passion available. WHEN I stick my neck out again it will be good to know who is standing where.

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Old 11-06-2006, 15:35   #38
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Until I started reading this thread I thought it was only Hawaii that had the losss of freedom and facilities for recreational boaters including the Cruiser/Liveaboard community. Now I know that there are others among us in different parts of the world. I'd like to know if there is a national organization which does support boaters. Does anyone know of any?
Do boaters have a lobby? In the U. S. is it Boat U.S.? Regards, --John--
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Old 11-06-2006, 16:14   #39
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John - I think that is the 'can' we are kicking about. I don't think that there is a central lobbying group specific to boaters and our concerns.
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Old 11-06-2006, 17:36   #40
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Big bucks will win

I think Sean is right. This is not an issue that Cruisers can win. We will never be organised enough or motivated enough.
Lets face it, all we want to do is go sailing.
I've got this problem in Sydney. Yachties have been squeezed out.
My solution is to move to the Philippines.
Low costs, great weather etc.etc.
It all takes time though and I just have to acept that I can't have a boat until I go (beginning of next year if the asawa agrees).
The fairness and the justice is that at the moment we have a boom.
When the bust comes you can't eat a view!
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Old 11-06-2006, 17:45   #41
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Originally Posted by markpj23
Consider a global organization whose membership came from the boating community at large. Associations and alliances with manufacturers and manufacturers associations could be formed. Some random thoughts of what might be accomplished or undertaken by the group:
- form an insurance cooperative to drive down the cost of coverage
- partner with state and local environmental groups to restore fish habitat, promote "clean wake" policies like SSCA, provide artificial reef services by donating or sanitizing derelict craft to be sunk
- provide public mooring maintenance services to help remove the argument used in San Diego that eliminating the free anchorage area would save taxpayer $$
......Anyone want to give this a go?
For those in the US, you might start with BoatU.S., "Boat Owners Association of the United States"


"The BoatUS Government Affairs Department maintains the only staff of registered lobbyists representing recreational boaters in the nation's capital."

And they offer insurance, promote "clean wake" policies, etc...


Tim Allen
My Boat Projects and Sailing Stories
Sailors for the Sea, a new voice for ocean conservation
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Old 11-06-2006, 22:26   #42
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THere is one important factor not being discussed here. I have spoken with several local cruisers who are familiar with that particular anchorage. In their words "It is a sh@t hole". This is at the heart of the problem. If your home overlooked an anchorage full of derelict boats with floating docks loaded up with bicycles, BBQ's and misc junk, even as a cruiser, I think most of us would want something done about it. We need to first look internally to prevent situations like this from happening. If we, as cruisers, try to assist local govenments in discouraging behavior like this, and use such anchorages responsibly ourselves, I think that will go a long way in preventing such closures. PAC's are a great way to change, or prevent legislation, but when the problem exists within our own comunity it is really hard to call foul. The unfortunate truth is that the only real method to eliminate derelict boats from these anchorages it to go through local harbor or municipal officials. In doing so, the standard response is to kick everybody out. With the encouragement of politicians who would like to legislate us out of existance, and investers who would like to have control of the area, the actions we take to correct the situation are often the final nail in the coffin.
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Old 12-06-2006, 17:37   #43

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Cruisers are just out of luck in the USA.

First it was the land grab where waterfront property was bought and developed into high priced real estate. Who can blame the original landowners for selling? I sure can't.

The developers turn these properties into upscale developments and the nice people who bought these high priced pieces of waterfront property just can't be convinced that a cruiser with a 40 year old boat with their laundry hanging from the rigging is astheically pleasing. These homeowners pay taxes and are not surprisingly, well connected, and new laws are proposed and passed in their community. What was surprising to me, is that these new laws have been upheld, and are now law of the land. Whatever happened to the right of navigation or Admiralty law?

Just how would anyone propose that this scenario be stopped? If I am the original owner of this property, I'll not sit still for anyone telling me that I can't sell it to a developer, right? If I'm the owner of a new million dollar condo with a wonderful waterfront view, I'll not sit still for someone spoiling that view, and I'll probably have the clout to do something about it.

In my humble opinion this is a lost cause, and a cruisers' days are numbered in America.

The three answers to this problem are like the proverbial dog who won't hunt.

1.) Old Admiralty law is found to actually prevail.

2.) The local waterfront communities actually buy waterfront property to preserve public access, much as they build and maintain a city and/or county park system. (and of course all the developers and real estate brokers on the town counsel will agree to this, right?)

3.) We all buy million dollar yachts, which we will suddenly find welcome in all communities.

This situation is so compelling and so sad, that I just have to stop here....

Rick in Florida
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Old 12-06-2006, 17:59   #44

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Things that MIGHT work...

1. Get a lawyer to represent somebody defying a local anchoring ordinance...and win.
2. Work with Boat US, the only lobbying group for boaters.
3. Get after the boat industry people to start pitching a fit. How many boat industry jobs are there in Florida? (Don't forget that Hunter is Florida based)
4. Self policing our own. See somebody dumping trash or effluent, turn them in. Prod those who are anchored in populated areas and have the laundry hanging out all over to reign it in.
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Old 12-06-2006, 18:19   #45

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"Whatever happened to the right of navigation or Admiralty law?" Nothing happened to it, Rick. Those laws are still upheld. That's why you have the right to PASS THROUGH, and the right to anchor of necessity (i.e. when you can't safely continue).
But the navigation laws, and maritime laws, never gave anyone the right to simply drop anchor anytime and place they pleased for as long as they wanted.
There's an exchange in CasaBlanca between Rick and the gendarme that goes along the lines of this:
-Why did you come to Casablanca?
--I came for the springs
-But Rick, there are no springs in Casablanca
--Yes, I was misinformed.

Any cruiser who thinks they ever had a right to anchor willy-nilly where and as they pleased? Was misinformed. That's why I say it is a waste of time and effort to try pursuing this non-existant "right".
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