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Old 31-01-2016, 19:01   #256
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
Yep, really sad story. I've been keeping an eye out for information from the owner, given that at the time reports ranged from capsized to sunk to fire etc. (and we have a sister ship) I'm glad he posted the report as it gives us all something to learn by. Reading the report it seems the skipper made some good decisions early on by altering course to try clear the worst of the storm, dropping the sails and preparing a drogue. It seems the drogue setup wasn't adequate for the conditions (not surprising looking at the photo) even though it had a 14kg anchor attached they were still surfing at 35kt! And eventually attachment fittings broke, lines tangled with props and loss of steering etc. An incredibly sad chain of events and it sounds like the skipper made all the best decisions available at the time. Surviving overnight and then being found the next morning...amazing...
It must have been a very difficult time for the family and it's good to see they've bought a new yacht and are back out sailing...
Really the whole story makes me shiver and admire their determination at overcoming adversity against incredible odds..
Thanks for having posted that. I was also waiting him to post that on their blog. For the ones that can read French it is better on the original since the translation as some hiccups:
http://revesdo.over-blog.com/2015/07...rt-de-mer.html

The skipper says that the cat was on the verge of capsizing on three occasions and that he had no control on the boat (on those occasions) and that's why he asked for help.

Regarding those 3 times I can understand what he means (in French) even if I cannot say it in English (the right word for embardee?), but I can explain. He says: "Nous ferons plusieurs embardées qui ont bien failli retourner Rêves d' Ô à trois reprises."

They say that many times they lost control coming down the wave and that the boat went sideways with a rotational movement. From those many times for 3 times they were really close to a capsize.

I have been saying here the obvious, that a small sailingboat able to sail safely in any sea conditions is a thing that does not exist. Simply there are conditions that can be dangerous to any small sailingboat.

Being dangerous does not mean that if one is lucky the boat cannot survive it with luck...but any sailor that trust in luck to survive a storm is a dangerous sailor in my book.

That boat should not be there in first place. The skipper of the Lagoon posted a photo to give an idea of the conditions, this one:

However It does not seem the cargo ship that made the rescue.
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Old 31-01-2016, 20:00   #257
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
But, with a modern Cat, will they not lay to a big para-anchor?? Even with a bridle??
Is the only storm tactic to run downwind with bare poles, dragging a drogue??



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Yes, cat's will lie to a sea anchor. Yes, you need to use a bridle. As with any boat, good attachment points are needed. Most production cat's don't have them.
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Old 31-01-2016, 21:20   #258
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Embardee is to broach/yaw
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Old 01-02-2016, 01:51   #259
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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Paul, While we do not know the specific circumstances, there is ZERO reason for guessing that boat design played any role.
Well, I respectfully disagree. I would hope that over four decades of sailing boats large and small and seven decades of involvement with and observation of the sport would give my opinion a bit more regard than "guessing." And, yes, I do believe design (and construction and many other factors) play a very big role in successful sailing, offshore or on. I cannot understand how you can maintain a position that refutes common sense.

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Call it a toss, call it luck, call it uneven extreme wave and wind distribution field related to small, quick moving low pressure systems. Just try to avoid thinking a Hinckley with its legs tied is safer than some other boat when a storm of this magnitude hits the fleet.

With all due respect,
b.
So, you think it's all random outcome? Being out there in survival conditions and it's all the same if you're in a J 30 or a Cal 40? There is no difference between a high-sided, unballasted catamaran and a relatively narrow ballasted CCA type like a Pilot? And lying to a drogue is "having [one's] legs tied?" Really?

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Old 01-02-2016, 02:21   #260
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

i am not too good at french but as i understand cat has not flipped but has sunk mainly due to impact with ship. pls correct if i am wrong.

this may be the case of bad luck as boat could still float if ship did not try to rescue ?

The other guys were lucky as helicopter came for them which is way safer. It could easily be opposite.

I think there are 3 lessons for me at least:
1. lagoons buoyancy not great. Seen several photos of upturned lagoons that do not float well. As my sailing area black hole have to improve this. One area is to empty water tanks 600 and lave say 100 (after things get hairy). this gets rid of 500 kg and provides extra 500 kg buoyancy = net effect = 1 T. Keep boat light !

2. was it cleat that gave way or rope ? Either way, I need to get stronger attachments or do not use drogue but practice scudding.

3. do not easily call for help. Ship like this (unloaded) can ruin it all.
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Old 01-02-2016, 02:31   #261
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

A very sad story with a lot of unfortunate circumstances.

One thing that puzzles me is surfing at 32 knots. I thought lagoons were relatively heavy. I can't imagine a heavy mono doing that.
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Old 01-02-2016, 02:32   #262
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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Embardee is to broach/yaw
1 thing that people ignore is that wave moves with the boat. Even if in static conditions boat is over, and one feels that way, wave speed works in boats favour. Boat speed may actually be good as more corrective move is realised in critical short period when angle is dangerous.

I have observed this is severe chop . cat looked like will flip but happily sailed on. That is why waves beam on sailing works fine in cat.
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Old 01-02-2016, 02:34   #263
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Doing 16knts down the waves in a L380 club with just a tiny square meter of jib trough a heavy squall between Las Palmas and Martinique, i believe under bare poles 14 or 15 knts, the huge structure is in fact a big sail...
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Old 01-02-2016, 03:54   #264
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

I wish to comment on John's excellent post (#40). Specifically, where John introduces the subject of weather in the manner that if one cannot keep the previously mentioned 3 things then any weather product is of little use, then in the same manner any weather product is of little use if one cannot correctly interpret weather products.

I have seen it too often in aviation, marine, or the general outdoorsman (hunter or hiker). Even among professionals, too many are unable to interpret the weather product or that they miss important information.

Weather products are written in specific formats. The user should be familiar with the format. Not all products use the same format but whichever product is used, they should become familiar with it. The immediate benefits of this are a better ability to glean maximum information and an aid to organization. I prefer raw data formatting. But plain text may be preferable to other users. Whatever one's preference, it does one no good if they cannot read it. And the less one understands of a format, the more prone one is to miss key information and important details.

Perhaps more importantly is the ability to decipher observations in order to extrapolate a forecast which then can be used to compare to other forecasts. The objective here is to develop a deeper understanding of the weather rather than solely understanding the weather products. I summarize this by saying the clouds are written in the language of the sky. Even cloudless conditions are telling but if one knows to read it. The wind and the waves too. I think it vital that mariners and aviators learn what the weather phenomena are telling them.

So, to interpret the weather products is important. Interpreting weather phenomena is equally important. I think the latter is more important but that's my opinion. Very few conditions come with surprise. Getting out of the way is a different matter. However, the earlier one becomes aware, the more time to plan their action. Yes, that is a statement of the obvious and seems as common sense. Yet so incredulous, so often that folks are caught unaware that perhaps 'common' should be stricken from the term.

Attending a lecture series on weather, or reading through comprehensive texts (Bowditch, anyone?), or scheduling remedial lessons through USCG auxiliary or the like, or maybe even serious videos on You Tube would be some good methods to gain at least a good working understanding.

I haven't read this thread but through the 1st several pages. I intend to read the entirety of this thread. John's post is a strong contender for the best post I've read on CF.
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Old 01-02-2016, 04:14   #265
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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Now hear this. For those prone to soiling their knickers, the soil lamp is lit. That is all.

That picture is a tremendous testimony of the power and the majesty of the sea. It is with awe, bold, audacious, inspiring, threatening, fearful, ghastly. Just as I had the thought of scampering to the bow to better partake of the spirited action, I would as soon dismiss that thought with extreme prejudice. I may be crazy but not stupid. (or vice versa)
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Old 01-02-2016, 05:13   #266
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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Embardee is to broach/yaw
Sometimes there are some words that have no precise translation on another language. Embarder is not to broach. To broach in French is "partir au lof" or if it is really violent "depart au tas". Maybe yaw is a better translation but from my understanding a yaw can be a not really violent movement while an "embardee" is always a violent one and imply a very sudden change of direction. the term can be used to describe that kind of movement on sailboats on motorboats or even on cars.
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Old 01-02-2016, 05:53   #267
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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... an "embardee" is always a violent one and imply a very sudden change of direction. the term can be used to describe that kind of movement on sailboats on motorboats or even on cars.
lurch, yaw (embardée, écart), sheer, swerve, or lurch (embardée, vacillement).
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Old 01-02-2016, 06:04   #268
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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A very sad story with a lot of unfortunate circumstances.

One thing that puzzles me is surfing at 32 knots. I thought lagoons were relatively heavy. I can't imagine a heavy mono doing that.
I have read descriptions of big ocean racing trimarans caught in huge storms, sailed only with the rig and with difficulty to control speed but I agree that 32k is hardly believable if he was talking about boat speed and a heavy Lagoon.

Probably he was talking about GPS speed (speed over ground) and regarding that big waves (and even the sea) motions at considerable speed. A 12 meters wave can move at about 25k and I believe that the 32K have to do with that, the boat and the speed moving on the same direction.

Note that I am not saying that those waves were moving at that speed but that on those conditions speed over ground is not a reliable indication of boat speed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_wave
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Old 01-02-2016, 06:15   #269
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pirate Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

So, to interpret the weather products is important. Interpreting weather phenomena is equally important. I think the latter is more important but that's my opinion. Very few conditions come with surprise. Getting out of the way is a different matter. However, the earlier one becomes aware, the more time to plan their action. Yes, that is a statement of the obvious and seems as common sense. Yet so incredulous, so often that folks are caught unaware that perhaps 'common' should be stricken from the term.
Richard5..

I feel its more the mental attitude that's the problem.. every crossing I've made you walk into Peter's Bar and its.. "How many days did it take you..??".
You tell em...
Big Sneer... "25 Day's..??? ****..!! we did it in 17... only 14 days last year.. what you got a bathtub and hand towel.....???"
Press On regardless.. why reef.. we've only a 25* heel...
When the SHTF they're already near knackered and off guard coz there's only 200 miles to go... On.. ON..!!
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Old 01-02-2016, 06:17   #270
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Thanks Polux. I asked Jen to translate and her description led me to yaw, but her actual words were something like jumping quickly from one course/track to another. From the situation it sounds like the cat was accelerating with the waves and losing directional stability to the point it was tripping on one hull/keel, slowing the boat enough that the energy is transferred to lifting the windward hull. That's a pretty common scenario on cats downwind although usually it happens with mainsail up on a broad reach and the leeward bow dips enough to create enough resistance. I can imagine the same scenario in this case with no sails, high wind and seas and no drogue. We have had a lot of 15kt+ surf on Sephina. At first I was very nervous of this effect but found that the L400 tracks through the surfs extremely well directionally and the bows remain at least 300mm above the sea surface and the autopilot handles it with no more than a 10 degree course variation. It's not a time I'd like to be away from the helm though. The energy stored by accelerating a 14t boat to 15kt is huge and the force required to slow it to 1kt is easily enough to capsize in adverse conditions. A drogue to keep the ass to the wind and limit surfing speeds is imperative over a certain wind speed with associated waves, or a parachute anchor. Failing that, handsteering the safest course downwind..
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