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Old 10-02-2012, 06:05   #46
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Re: Turkish Tourist Visa Changes ?

DOJ, this still does not explain how a country is supporting the foreigner for free over the winter;i.e., the yachtie wintering in a marina; as Pete declared. The only other taxes not currently being paid by visiting yachties would be income tax or property taxes. The yachties already pay all other taxes within the country visited. It would be simple enough for Turkey to implement an additional tax (call it a personal property tax if you wish) levied against all visiting yachts if this new 90-day visa were about collecting additional taxes. That would make more sense than limiting stays to 90-in/90-out. That logic leads me to believe that this visa change was not made for tax reasons, but for some other reason. Others have mentioned black market labor, although we saw nothing of the kind in Turkey.

The 90-day limit is workable with Turkey. It is so close to Greece that even during winter weather it is possible to move a boat over to Greece to meet the 90-day limit. This just means that Turkey will lose more income.

I still maintain that it would make more sense for Turkey to implement an optional longer term tourist visa for yachties at additional cost, a la Australia at 12 months and New Zealand at 6 months. Having a tourist visit a country for 6 months or 12 months does not place a burden on that county's infrastructure.

Judy
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:19   #47
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Why should any visitors demand that they have the right to stay for extended periods. There's no right to tourism. You are allowed to stay at the pleasure of that country, subject to its rules , end of story. tourism is not a long stay event. It's a 2 week holiday for most.

90 days is actually a decent enough time. But going on about it that simply because you pay for things means you should be allowed to stay is nonsense.

Let's look at a modern med country like France. During your stay you'll use the local buses and trains , all extensively subsidised by the taxpayers. If you have a medical emergency you will be looked after for free. You will no doubt attend the many waterside festivals and fireworks display all paid for by the taxpayers. You use beautiful public communal areas and parks, vist subsidised zoos and other attractions all funded by public taxes, predominantly income and capital/wealth taxes none of which youll be asked to pay.

Yet in return. All you might do is spend 6 weeks anchored for free and buy a little food. This is hardly making a contribution of any significance.

Don't you get it., your a visiting boater, who is a statistical irrelevance when it comes to your contribution. No body in authority is going to be concerned about extending your vists over the ordinary package holiday tourist , who flys in for a 2 week break. and why should they , merely because you'll buy a few red peppers etc.


Just because you spend it doesn't give you any more " rights" in any civilised country.

By the way most countries are clamping down on long stays to protect their economies from economic migrants. Especially in these recessionary times. "they took our jobs" has a powerful resonance when times are hard. It's not difficult to see that Turkey is harmonising its tourist laws to the European norm.

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Old 10-02-2012, 06:49   #48
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Re: Turkish Tourist Visa Changes ?

We are turning towards politics. But I can see the points of DOJ & goboatingnow.
After my summercruise I definitely turn my back to Holland and go living in France. I have real estate up there for which I pay taxes. I am very hard thinking of changing nationality as well.
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:14   #49
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Re: Turkish Tourist Visa Changes ?

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Originally Posted by svBeBe View Post
DOJ, this still does not explain how a country is supporting the foreigner for free over the winter;i.e., the yachtie wintering in a marina; as Pete declared.
It's much the same as I if I turned up to live in your house in the spare room. It may not cost you cash for me to bunk up nor use all the facilities (and maybe I even cover my own living expenses - and maybe chip something extra into the pot. maybe). ......but there nonetheless is a cost to you of providing lodgings to me (if not - I will arrive next Wednesday ).....that's why if you were doing that commercially you would charge someone rent for that, unless I became part of your family (marry or adopt me? ) and even then someone would be expected to contribute according to their ability / the need of the family.

Taxes are essentially a country's "rent".....for those who move from the status of temporary Guest (Tourist) to Resident.

As I said, it's simply a question of how long that transition takes - in my case moving from Welcome Guest to PITA would likely be fairly quick ....but I am not an easy person to live with. or near ......but at the end of the day - it's your house (and home) so you set the rules, not me.....including simply telling me to eff off when I arrive on your doorstep with a packed suitcase, 2 dogs, a Penguin and a Goat - for a 6 month stay .


Quote:
The only other taxes not currently being paid by visiting yachties would be income tax or property taxes. The yachties already pay all other taxes within the country visited. It would be simple enough for Turkey to implement an additional tax (call it a personal property tax if you wish) levied against all visiting yachts if this new 90-day visa were about collecting additional taxes. That would make more sense than limiting stays to 90-in/90-out. That logic leads me to believe that this visa change was not made for tax reasons, but for some other reason. Others have mentioned black market labor, although we saw nothing of the kind in Turkey.
I have no idea what Taxes Turkey has, may also have wealth taxes, state / regional taxes, capital gains taxes or all manner of things that politicos dream up. In any event someone becoming a resident doesn't get to pick and choose what they pay (oh, if that was only true!).

As you say, this VISA change probably has little to do with collecting additional taxes (but IMO a useful tool to do that, whether now or later).....probably more about creating a level playing field with other countries. Lots of countries are rather Nationalistic and have this strange idea that their country is for the benefit or their own people - not for the conveniance of others.....admittedly some have a rather strange way of demonstrating that .

Quote:
that even during winter weather it is possible to move a boat over to Greece to meet the 90-day limit. This just means that Turkey will lose more income.

I still maintain that it would make more sense for Turkey to implement an optional longer term tourist visa for yachties at additional cost, a la Australia at 12 months and New Zealand at 6 months. Having a tourist visit a country for 6 months or 12 months does not place a burden on that county's infrastructure.

Judy
I can see the argument for that - but IMO "you" are just not an important enough segment economically to bother doing that. In any event, it's not as if Greece is an automatic tax free residency for people - may have been in the past, but I rather suspect not so much in the future.

North Africa on the other hand may be just the ticket .
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:24   #50
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It was in Grenada where they researched the benefit of the economy from cruise ship tourists vs cruisers. IIRC the ratio was between 1:100 and 1:1000... so 1000 cruise ship tourists contribute the same amount to the economy as one single cruiser.

I believe it has nothing to do with tax... it is about aggression as a result of harsh times. Let's hope it stays at kicking out tourists and rethoric like heard in this thread instead of marching armies towards those who are perceived to hold what others want.

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Old 10-02-2012, 20:44   #51
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Re: Turkish Tourist Visa Changes ?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
It was in Grenada where they researched the benefit of the economy from cruise ship tourists vs cruisers. IIRC the ratio was between 1:100 and 1:1000... so 1000 cruise ship tourists contribute the same amount to the economy as one single cruiser.

I believe it has nothing to do with tax... it is about aggression as a result of harsh times. Let's hope it stays at kicking out tourists and rethoric like heard in this thread instead of marching armies towards those who are perceived to hold what others want.

ciao!
Nick.
Nick, you are obviously right. Contrary to what others insist, this has nothing to do with taxes. If it did, Turkey would not also offer the residency visa which allows yachties to stay a year or even for 5 years at no significant additional cost. The only caveat on the residency visa is that one must pay for a full year at a specific marina. Cruising yachties do not want to spend a full year sitting in one marina; so this is wasted money paid for a marina that will not be used while out cruising at least half the year. It is either pay for a marina you won't use or go back and forth to Greece alternating 90-day periods. If one opts for the residency visa and pays for that marina, then Turkey won't lose tourist income. If one opts for the alternating 90-day periods to Greece, then Turkey loses tourist income.

Northern Cyprus is looking better and better for wintering for non-EU nationals, assuming TRNC also doesn't change to the 90-in/90-out rule.

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Old 10-02-2012, 21:19   #52
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Re: Turkish Tourist Visa Changes ?

Most countries periodically shoot themselves in the foot, because they are run by idiots. This year it will be Italy and its boat tax and Turkey and its 90 day limit. The people who suffer from the idiocy will not be the boaters (who will simply go somewhere else) it will be the people whose living depends on the boaters.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:04   #53
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Originally Posted by donradcliffe
Most countries periodically shoot themselves in the foot, because they are run by idiots. This year it will be Italy and its boat tax and Turkey and its 90 day limit. The people who suffer from the idiocy will not be the boaters (who will simply go somewhere else) it will be the people whose living depends on the boaters.
Explain to me how the Italian wealth tax will shoot itself in the foot. Given that most boats in Italy are owned by Italians who can't really move their boats. ( marinas in France and Croatia are packed already)

How will turkey shoot itself in the Foot with 90 days given this is the standard tourist visa time in the whole of the EU and the USA. The average tourist stays 2weeks.

Really get a grip. these taxes or rules have nothing to do with cruisers who are a dot on the backside of tourism

Dave
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:35   #54
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Re: Turkish Tourist Visa Changes ?

I must say for me the issue is not the 90 in 90 out rule - as other posters have said, that's just bringing Turkey in line with most EU countries. It's that the alternative for longer term cruisers in Turkey of taking out a resident's visa involves other irksome obligations such as opening a Turkish bank account and paying in a stipulated amount each month - as well, of course, as committing to a marina contract.

More important perhaps is the message it delivers that EU-flagged yachts can't any longer treat Turkey as almost a cruising extension of the
Western Aegean. Yes indeed, we yotties are no more than collateral damage but I fear for the prospects of all those enterprising Turkish restaurant owners who have invested time and money in creating pontoon moorings for the visiting foreign yottie hordes.

As for us, we've now moved as a result of the new restrictions from Kusadasi to Preveza in Greece. Hopefully that's not out of the frying pan and into the fire ...
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:52   #55
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Re: Turkish Tourist Visa Changes ?

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Yes indeed, we yotties are no more than collateral damage but I fear for the prospects of all those enterprising Turkish restaurant owners who have invested time and money in creating pontoon moorings for the visiting foreign yottie hordes.
That is part of the suffering of the local economy pointed at by BeBe, me and others in this thread. It also includes the maintenance and repair companies that live from visiting yachts, supermarkets that thrive of sales to yachts, marina's that have cost millions to build on the assumption of visiting yachts etc. etc. Much will end and many will loose jobs and the income from taxes will suffer, both VAT and income tax from the people directly or indirectly employed by/for visiting yachts... hence "shoot themselves in the foot". There is no positive offset for this other than the lonesome cruiser illegally working in Turkey... who will probably stay under the radar and keep working anyway.

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Old 11-02-2012, 08:55   #56
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Re: Turkish Tourist Visa Changes ?

Nick, cruising yachts have been caught in the cross fire here.

The question to ask is why has Turkey introduced these visa requirements? I can't be sure but suspect its to stop people arriving in Turkey on a tourist visa and then disappearing under the radar and working in the black economy, a problem for all first world countries.

However, a one year residency visa is $80, hardly going to break the bank. So you need a Turkish bank account, not a problem and could be useful if someone was living in the country for a while. I had a German bank account when I lived in Germany and the same in Hong Kong. Excellent way of proving you are a local not a tourist and therefore aren't paying top dollar.

As to needing to pay for a marina berth for a year, really? isn't this more about having an address for the officials? if so what about a PO box at the marina for a mail address, I'm sure the marina would oblige for a small fee so everyone wins.

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Old 11-02-2012, 09:29   #57
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Re: Turkish Tourist Visa Changes ?

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The question to ask is why has Turkey introduced these visa requirements? I can't be sure but suspect its to stop people arriving in Turkey on a tourist visa and then disappearing under the radar and working in the black economy, a problem for all first world countries.
I don't think the governments of first world countries are stupid enough not to realize that for those people it doesn't matter for how long the tourist visa is valid. Even a 1 day visa is enough for them. And exactly this issue invalidates all further discussion on things based on this assumption that I and others do not believe to be a reason for anything at all.

Governments try to stop this illegal immigration and black market workers by not granting a visa to those they suspect might do this.

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Old 11-02-2012, 10:24   #58
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Re: Turkish Tourist Visa Changes ?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
It was in Grenada where they researched the benefit of the economy from cruise ship tourists vs cruisers. IIRC the ratio was between 1:100 and 1:1000... so 1000 cruise ship tourists contribute the same amount to the economy as one single cruiser.

I believe it has nothing to do with tax... it is about aggression as a result of harsh times. Let's hope it stays at kicking out tourists and rethoric like heard in this thread instead of marching armies towards those who are perceived to hold what others want.

ciao!
Nick.
The economy of Grenada is very different to that of Turkey - in both size and diversity. Although perhaps a bit () unfair, probably the case that if a cruiser buys a bunch of bananas in Grenada the GDP doubles .

The economy of Turkey on the other hand has advanced massively over the last 10 to 15 years (a Muslim "tiger"? ).....and I think the Turks have (finally!) realised that will never be allowed into the EU and have simply decided that there future not only needs to be but would also be better outside the EU (and that they will still be able to enjoy all the economic benefits of a close trading relationship with the EU) - with the upside of not having to bend the knee to the Europeans (nowadays they can afford to have some pride )......and on that latter point is probably partly where the 90 limit for everyone is.

Interesting that the Turks do offer a longer term Visa that would cater to all the needs of longterm "visitor" - they just have a few strings attached to ensure that the country does get some real value $$$ from folk.

If someone was genuinely cruising (as in moving about) then simply have to pick the cheapest Marina berth (or onshore address - PO box or real) even if no intention of ever visiting (and treat it as a Cruising tax). I am sure a smart Marina Operator or 10 will soon twig that as an opportunity . Otherwise you would probably need a Marina (and a contract) anyway.

As so often, it all comes down to the amount of money........
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:36   #59
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Re: Turkish Tourist Visa Changes ?

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Explain to me how the Italian wealth tax will shoot itself in the foot. Given that most boats in Italy are owned by Italians who can't really move their boats. ( marinas in France and Croatia are packed already)

How will turkey shoot itself in the Foot with 90 days given this is the standard tourist visa time in the whole of the EU and the USA. The average tourist stays 2weeks.

Really get a grip. these taxes or rules have nothing to do with cruisers who are a dot on the backside of tourism

Dave
Dave,

I think you skipped your meds again! Ask the boatworkers in Italy or Turkey if they like these new rules as they contemplate unemployment. The US is not immune to idiotic politicians--the luxury tax destroyed the boatbuilding industry here and put thousands out of work.
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:21   #60
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Re: Turkish Tourist Visa Changes ?

Don, it wont destroy the boating industry in Turkey. Folk will still need boats fixed and since the visas apply to people not boats they will still be in Turkey even if the owners have to do a quick border trip or pay $80 for residency, hardly the end of the world.

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