Tunisia 8 hostages murdered.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Careful... else they may start taking exception to your join date.. if they'd even notice..
The paranoia is amazing.. along with the Maths...

I have been pretty quiet over the last few months,but that does not mean I have not been here lurking.............seems like the young miss only seems interested in reactionary threads such as this,that suit his/her agenda since he/she joined in feb

not heard a nautical word out of the member yet

[boatman61]

Working for the 'Green Card' judging by the accent..
But.. I was refering to Keskykens join date...

[atoll]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

What Gaza Massacre? Are you talking about the terror tunnels built using aid money to be used by terrorists to launch attacks on Israeli citizens. Those tunnels that lead to schools where they had plans of emerging and unleashing a bloody massacre. Is this the Gaza massacre you are talking about? Or the terror tunnels that were in fact used to enter Israel and shoot and kill innocent civilians.

Or maybe you are talking about Israel attacking rocket launching sites. You know those rocket bases in the Gaza Hospital and deliberately placed in schools and homes. The same rocket bases that were used to fire on innocent civilians in Israel and only by the skilled Iron Dome operators were not able to massacre Israeli citizens. I am sure you are aware of the leaflet drops and messages sent to evacuate buildings used to fire rockets from by those Gazan Arabs before the Israelis blew up the rocket launches. I am sure you are aware of the Israelis bringing medical crews to the front line not for their own soldiers but to give medical treatment to civilians that got caught up in this horrible event. I am sure you know that the Arabs in Gaza broke international law by hiding amongst civilians and sickeningly used them as shields while they launched rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.

Thank you for blowing my cover, I don't think so. I am not a guy or a spy. I am a regular women who has travelled the world and seen things and experienced things I wish I hadn't and many things I will be for ever glad that I have. I find it flattering that you would think that I was a member of the best spy agency in the world but I am sorry to burst your delusion.

From anti-Americans to anti-Israeli and anti-semites this place is crawling with the kind I would not want to associate with. Sorry if your offended but your positions seriously offend me.

that is a typical response I would expect from someone engaged in the current misinformation project of the isreali government.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by atoll

I have been pretty quiet over the last few months,but that does not mean I have not been here lurking.............seems like the young miss only seems interested in reactionary threads such as this,that suit his/her agenda since he/she joined in feb

not heard a nautical word out of the member yet

Perhaps before you continue to attack me you should go and read my posts about Lagoon's. Or my enquiry about forward looking devices for safer navigation. I read a great deal more than I post and am very grateful for what I have learned and continue to learn.

Go ahead with your false claim as a means of attacking me. Very typical of left wing types when they can't win on facts they attack the person.

First you call me a foreign spy or agent working for a foreign Government and now you lie by saying I am am not really interested in boating issues. After slandering Israel you now turn on slandering me. It's amazing what brought you out from lurking for months as you said. And it wasn't discussing boating. Perhaps you are the reactionary who's motives should be questioned.

[Dauntlessny]

Since this thread has degenerated to a discussion most 14 year olds would think is infantile, I was wondering if anyone has heard of the Rebel Heart folks recently?

[boatman61]

I believe that now the deception is complete the submarine 'Rebel Heart of Texas' is headed for the Gulf.. last AIS put her around 600nm SSE of Sri Lanka..
But on the serious side..
looks like they're settling in..
http://www.therebelheart.com/charlottes-blog/

[GoingWalkabout]

[QUOTE=keseyken;1782633]I've no quibble with that.

The behaviour of Israel to the Palestinians is, however, indefensible and demeaning to the memory of those who suffered in the Holocaust.

What is indefensible is the Arab dwellers in Israel who have never accepted the right of Jews to have their own homeland. They have never accepted the legitimate right of Jews to return to their homeland. What is totally indefensible is their continued calling for death to Jews and for Israel destruction. Israel stands as a proud testament to the strength and character of the Jewish people and a proud testimony for the memory of the Jewish brothers and sisters exterminated by the Nazis.

Wholesale slaughter in Gaza, time and time again

What a load of unfounded propaganda. No wholesale slaughter by Israel at all.

Use of white phosphorous, depleted uranium shells, cluster bombs, targeting children on beaches...

More lies. No chemical or phosphorous weapons gave been used by Israel. Israel uses the same type of shells used by the United States against hardened targets such as tanks. No cluster bombs. The children on the beach video has already been proven to be a lie. Israel does not target children. It's like listen to Gerbals all over again. How perverse to have the very people who DO target children through terrorism turn around and make up lies accusing the victim of terror, Israel.

and Netanyahu lies and prevaricates time and time again.

You just continue in your spewing of hatred and your own lies.

Undermining of Palestinian houses under the guise of archaeological digs ...

What fantasy. The only undermining of Arab settlers homes are by the terrorists digging their terror tunnels

Ethnic cleansing by any other name.

Israel does not perform ethnic cleansing. Visit Israel and you will see Jew's, Christian's, Muslim's Arabs, Europeans, etc all treated equally and fairly in the only true democracy in the middle east. Unlike in the West Bank Arab settler controlled areas where Jews are forbidden and if they wander into these areas are murdered by Arabs. You only need to look throughout the middle east and see how Arabs are practising ethnic cleansing.

[goboatingnow]

[QUOTE=Going Walkabout;1782952]

Originally Posted by keseyken

I've no quibble with that.




What is indefensible is the Arab dwellers in Israel who have never accepted the right of Jews to have their own homeland. They have never accepted the legitimate right of Jews to return to their homeland. What is totally indefensible is their continued calling for death to Jews and for Israel destruction. Israel stands as a proud testament to the strength and character of the Jewish people and a proud testimony for the memory of the Jewish brothers and sisters exterminated by the Nazis.



What a load of unfounded propaganda. No wholesale slaughter by Israel at all.



More lies. No chemical or phosphorous weapons gave been used by Israel. Israel uses the same type of shells used by the United States against hardened targets such as tanks. No cluster bombs. The children on the beach video has already been proven to be a lie. Israel does not target children. It's like listen to Gerbals all over again. How perverse to have the very people who DO target children through terrorism turn around and make up lies accusing the victim of terror, Israel.



You just continue in your spewing of hatred and your own lies.



What fantasy. The only undermining of Arab settlers homes are by the terrorists digging their terror tunnels



Israel does not perform ethnic cleansing. Visit Israel and you will see Jew's, Christian's, Muslim's Arabs, Europeans, etc all treated equally and fairly in the only true democracy in the middle east. Unlike in the West Bank Arab settler controlled areas where Jews are forbidden and if they wander into these areas are murdered by Arabs. You only need to look throughout the middle east and see how Arabs are practising ethnic cleansing.

The issue of the legitimacy of Zionism, goes to the heart of the issue of course, historically prior to the Holocaust the issue was regarded as a pipe dream at best. In fact, in the past , European Jewry often distanced itself from Zionism, seeing it as a attempt to question their national identify because of their religion


The current conflict of course is a direct function of the imposition of one people into the vicinity of another, in a completely arbitrary basis. Its not the first time this type of thing has occurred nor i suspect will it be the last. The Middle east is bedevilled by the " mistakes " of its former occupiers and colonial empire building.

There is no doubt however that without the support of US and its large Zionist movement, and the emotional effects of the Holocaust, Zionism would have remained a pipe dream.

Two things I would point out, Jews are not the only one to suffer population decimation, Ireland suffered Famine that resulted in the deaths or displacement of over 8 million people , Noone suggested they get a new country

The term Terrorist gets bandied about with gay abandon. In many countries former " terrorists " are currently sitting in Government. I have personally met people with such blood on their hands. Its a fact of life that we negotiate with them too.

You madam are just as guilty as anyone in what you spew. There is propaganda on all sides and in that the truth gets obfuscated and people are misled.

The sad thing is that this conflict will remain so, until the great powers decide otherwise.

[Wrong]

The total dead in the attack on tourists in Tunesia is 21.

There were three "terrorists" involved in the attack, trained to kill innocent people in an ISIS camp in Libya. Two are dead, one still at large.

ISIS. A group led by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi Profile: Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi - BBC News

This man is a psychopath, leading Islamic terrorists who are bereft of any sense of morality. Under his direction they commit horrendous crimes against people on account of their ethnicity, religion. tribal affiliation, sex and country of origin.

How can any moral, informed person object to coordinated efforts to by the U.S. Coalition, under express request by the Iraqi government to assist in defending against the invasion by ISIS in Iraq object to Coalition efforts in Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Libya and Nigeria to arrest the onslaught? What justifies reference by CF members to information on the internet that suggests U.S. policies are somehow responsible for the proliferation of insurgencies like ISIS in the Middle East? Or, that suggest mortal military action against terrorist aggressors is tantamount to "terrorism"?

There are internet sites built and maintained by ISIS to host anti-western propaganda and for the purpose of attracting new recruits. Can anyone looking for a platform and recruits use Cruisersforum for the purpose? Only the truly naive would think otherwise.

For me at least, the posting of information in a thread like this suggesting military action by the U.S. is also "terrorism", can only be for one purpose. The poster wants us to believe the murder of innocent tourists is no worse than my country and her allies striking ISIS in defense of Iraq. Or, that finding terrorists and killing them with drones are acts of terrorism. But, they'll say, strikes on ISIS and drone attacks on terrorists kill civilians. All I can to this is reign in your terrorists, heal your hatred between Shiite, Sunni and the other numerous religious and ethnic groups. Respect the terroritorial integrity of your neighbors - and we're more than happy to go home. But, with the emergence of ISIS and its goal to create a Caliphate, attack countries beyond the Middle East an its total disregard for what's morally right - just going home is not so simple an alternative. It will take full participation of moral, fair and open minded inhabitants of the Middle East to eradicate the ISIS danger.

I think it's past time when Middle Easterners should have begun keeping count of deaths directly attributable to their hatreds for one another. It would easily dwarf deaths inadvertently, unintentionally caused by coalition military actions in the region.

Here's just a small representative sample gleaned from this thread that illustrates what I'm talking about.

-----------------------

Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
or maybe if " we" stopped interfering in the politics of other regions, that might help also
Syria and Libya interventions have proven a nightmare just substituting an evil power by a worst one. The overall result of western policies is the spreading of fundamentalism. Something very wrong with those policies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post

My goodness. How can you even attempt to give moral support or justification for terrorists. They are the scum and cowards of the earth. Blowing up children in schools. Killing civilians eating pizza in a pizza shop. I could go on and on.

The Geneva convention on the rules of law considered un - uniformed combatants as the worst. ...
All independence colonial movements that fought against the occupying powers were looked by those countries as terrorist movements. When you have not the means to fight a conventional war and you fight for what you see as right (for instance the independence of occupied territories or against a dictatorship), terrorism, or what is called as so by the opposing governments, is the only option. Off course the difference between terrorism and freedom fighters is a very narrow one and mainly dependent on the ones that finally won and re-wright the history.

Some states at a given time have done far worst than any terrorist movement, look for instance and the German final solution for Jews, the Turkish genocide with the Armenians just to name two cases but we could find many more.

__________________

Wrong
The murder of tourists without any provocation is an act of terrorism. Beheading captive soldiers or civilians simply on account of their ethnicity and or religion is terrorism, and depending on scale may be considered "ethnic cleansing" or genocide.

Attempting to conflate a discussion of 'movements', political policy and objectives with the aforementioned behaviour is at the very least a mistake.

Polux
Non sense calling that ethnic cleansing or genocide. All liberation movements were responsible for many innocent killings and senseless acts.

I was just looking to what are called terrorist movements and I have no sympathy for any kind of fundamentalism, that for me is an evil in itself since fundamentalism is the opposed of tolerance that can only be born for the understanding of different realities and different ways to look at reality.

Polux
Yes I agree the beheading of captive soldiers or the murder of tourists is also a senseless act but without making no excuses regarding the wrongness of that attitude it seems that when violence is upon westerners dead seems to have another value. Put that in contrast with the dead of hundred of thousands of innocent civilians that wrong western policies on the North Africa and Middle east have indirectly caused on that region and the dimension of the drama will be wildly broadened.

Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
...
Back to the definitions of soldiers vs terrorists, it seems pretty simple to me: if you follow the rules of engagement of the Geneva convention and fight only against other soldiers, you can call yourself a soldier, regardless of which side you're on.

If you go around .. killing innocent people, committing atrocities, etc, then you're just a criminal making excuses for your homicidal behavior .. It doesn't matter what you call yourself or which side you're on (to me, at least) it's your methods and tactics that determine how I view you.
..
These aren't just my opinions, .. Conduct yourself like a soldier, and the protections of the Geneva Convention will be afforded to you. .

Do you call this terrorism?

DRONE STRIKES: Top Secret Confessions of a Drone Pilot - YouTube

Page Description:
In today's video, Christopher Greene of AMTV reports on the top secret confessions of a drone pilot. http://www.amtvmedia.com/re-direct-w...mes-top-secret...

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
There are no such things as Terrorists, it's just a fake politically correct name so people don't have to deal with the Ideology behind the violence.

The soldiers in the American Revolution were not attacking the British for the sake of spilling blood but for a cause.

The Nazis were not killing Jews for no reason, but for a cause.

People in the Middle East are not strapping bombs onto their 13yr old kids for the fun of it, but for a cause.

We like to use the word "Terrorist", but what is Terror? Wars are not fought over "terror" they are fought over ideas, beliefs and desired outcomes.

Naming the conflict after 9/11 a "War on Terror" was one of Bush's many many mistakes and the world wants to continue it. Why? because it's easier to call them Terrorists than fighters for a stated and declared cause, beliefs, and desired outcomes.

Oh, now THEY themselves will tell us on video and in street march chants what they are fighting for...it's just too difficult for the soft fat and happy, West to admit it. Too difficult to think about and the ramifications too great to call it what it really is.

Heck, you guys all know that if I really said what the problem is (and it ain't poverty or a lack of jobs and opportunity as our idiot State Department actually said) that this thread would be shut down for "spreading hate", for being insensitive, or for hurting someone's feelings. You know it's true and that is the world we live in today. A world where for page after page we can talk about the "terrorists" but not have the courage to name them, their ideology, or what they themselves tell us they are fighting for. And my Friday night chat room friends, that is why the West will lose this war, a war we fail to even admit we are in, preferring instead to hold fast to the famous words of "Peace in our Time".

Polux
Yes I agree. The real problem here is fundamentalism or the inability to see the other's point of view, even if we don't agree with it. The best example of that inability is when westerners see only madness regarding those "terrorists" that believe so much in their cause that are willing to die for it.

The problem really becomes huge when intervention western policies, even when well meant, are decided by the ones that have that inability to understand and accept other cultures, assuming that their way of living and thinking is the right and only way. Somewhere democracy was lost on the process.

__________________

[goboatingnow]

Wrong,

You have a very fundamentalist view of the issues yourself it seems,

ISIL didn't just suddenly spring up out of nowhere. Iran, Iraq, Syria are all strokes of a pen , mostly denying the underlying people their historical homelands. ( See Colonel Lawrence and the Arab Homeland issues )

What the US is doing is cementing a WW1 process started by the brits and french. the whole US intervention in the middle east is and was a disaster from start to finish

Terrorist is a propaganda term, Im sure in all the military action carried out by the Allies, over many decades from ww1 through to the afghan and iras conflicts, children and non combatants have been killed too.

IN reality such terrorists often end up in Government , shaking the hands of the like of Bill Clinton and Ronald Regan, its a funny world

but this statement

All I can to this is reign in your terrorists, heal your hatred between Shiite, Sunni and the other numerous religious and ethnic groups. Respect the terroritorial integrity of your neighbors - and we're more than happy to go home

could only come from an American , utterly devoid of any historical knowledge , or who denies any such knowledge

" reign in you terrorists",

perhaps you mean the Mujahadheen that were heavily armed by the US during the Afghan russian invasion, on the basis of the enemy of my enemy is my friend , and formed the backbone of current Jihadism, because of course he was always your enemy , you just were opportunist, Fuuny when your dog then bites you , no. ( please comment on the morality of arming your emenies )

" heal your hatred between Shiite, Sunni and the other numerous religious and ethnic groups"

, would that be the hatred mostly exacerbated by the west interference in the middle east for the last 100 years, the effect of the Sykes Picout division of the Ottoman empire etc , or the fact that the West has played unpon such " hatred" for years using it for its own gains

Respect the terroritorial integrity of your neighbors - and we're more than happy to go home

would that be the territorial that the west and its allies imperially imposed on this area and maintained its dictators etc, Have you asked why Saudia Arabia , the hotbed of extreme Islam and birthplace of OSL, is a " friend " of the US

And " as for going home" who asked you in there in the first place.

I think it's past time when Middle Easterners should have begun keeping count of deaths directly attributable to their hatreds for one another. It would easily dwarf deaths inadvertently, unintentionally caused by coalition military actions in the region.

Seriously, the issue is the sum of deaths determines who's in the wrong !!!!, good god, what morality

Your lack of knowledge is extreme, there are no " good " guys in this conflict, just the sad play out of post colonial snafus, military spheres of influence and the politics of oil and religion

I doubt CF wil be taken in as a cover for Jihadism, but at least lets not leave it as a hotbed of FoxNews cartoon news views

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Wrong,

You have a very fundamentalist view of the issues yourself it seems,

ISIL didn't just suddenly spring up out of nowhere. Iran, Iraq, Syria are all strokes of a pen , mostly denying the underlying people their historical homelands. ( See Colonel Lawrence and the Arab Homeland issues )

What the US is doing is cementing a WW1 process started by the brits and french. the whole US intervention in the middle east is and was a disaster from start to finish

Terrorist is a propaganda term, Im sure in all the military action carried out by the Allies, over many decades from ww1 through to the afghan and iras conflicts, children and non combatants have been killed too.

IN reality such terrorists often end up in Government , shaking the hands of the like of Bill Clinton and Ronald Regan, its a funny world

but this statement



could only come from an American , utterly devoid of any historical knowledge , or who denies any such knowledge

perhaps you mean the Mujahadheen that were heavily armed by the US during the Afghan russian invasion, on the basis of the enemy of my enemy is my friend , and formed the backbone of current Jihadism, because of course he was always your enemy , you just were opportunist, Fuuny when your dog then bites you , no. ( please comment on the morality of arming your emenies )


, would that be the hatred mostly exacerbated by the west interference in the middle east for the last 100 years, the effect of the Sykes Picout division of the Ottoman empire etc , or the fact that the West has played unpon such " hatred" for years using it for its own gains



would that be the territorial that the west and its allies imperially imposed on this area and maintained its dictators etc, Have you asked why Saudia Arabia , the hotbed of extreme Islam and birthplace of OSL, is a " friend " of the US

And " as for going home" who asked you in there in the first place.



Seriously, the issue is the sum of deaths determines who's in the wrong !!!!, good god, what morality

Your lack of knowledge is extreme, there are no " good " guys in this conflict, just the sad play out of post colonial snafus, military spheres of influence and the politics of oil and religion

I doubt CF wil be taken in as a cover for Jihadism, but at least lets not leave it as a hotbed of FoxNews cartoon news views

A bird that you set free may be caught again,but a word that escapes your lips will not return..Jewish quote... also, a pessimist when confronted with 2 bad choices chooses both..

[GoingWalkabout]

Wrong. I agree with you and thanks for your post. Unfortunately your posting misquotes me by lumping in what I said with what someone else said.

You posted

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post

Quote: Going Walkabout

My goodness. How can you even attempt to give moral support or justification for terrorists. They are the scum and cowards of the earth. Blowing up children in schools. Killing civilians eating pizza in a pizza shop. I could go on and on.

The Geneva convention on the rules of law considered un - uniformed combatants as the worst. ...

This quote is correct and from me. What was added to my quote following was not from me.


I DID NOT SAY WHAT FOLLOWS. This piece of moral equivalency garbage following is not from me. Can you please attribute the true poster of what is stated bellow. I wrote the above statement starting with My goodness.

All independence colonial movements that fought against the occupying powers were looked by those countries as terrorist movements. When you have not the means to fight a conventional war and you fight for what you see as right (for instance the independence of occupied territories or against a dictatorship), terrorism, or what is called as so by the opposing governments, is the only option. Off course the difference between terrorism and freedom fighters is a very narrow one and mainly dependent on the ones that finally won and re-wright the*history.

Some states at a given time have done far worst than any terrorist movement, look for instance and the German final solution for Jews, the Turkish genocide with the Armenians just to name two cases but we could find many more.

This quote is not from me.

[tropicalescape]

[QUOTE=goboatingnow;1782976]

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

The issue of the legitimacy of Zionism, goes to the heart of the issue of course, historically prior to the Holocaust the issue was regarded as a pipe dream at best. In fact, in the past , European Jewry often distanced itself from Zionism, seeing it as a attempt to question their national identify because of their religion


The current conflict of course is a direct function of the imposition of one people into the vicinity of another, in a completely arbitrary basis. Its not the first time this type of thing has occurred nor i suspect will it be the last. The Middle east is bedevilled by the " mistakes " of its former occupiers and colonial empire building.

There is no doubt however that without the support of US and its large Zionist movement, and the emotional effects of the Holocaust, Zionism would have remained a pipe dream.

Two things I would point out, Jews are not the only one to suffer population decimation, Ireland suffered Famine that resulted in the deaths or displacement of over 8 million people , Noone suggested they get a new country

The term Terrorist gets bandied about with gay abandon. In many countries former " terrorists " are currently sitting in Government. I have personally met people with such blood on their hands. Its a fact of life that we negotiate with them too.

You madam are just as guilty as anyone in what you spew. There is propaganda on all sides and in that the truth gets obfuscated and people are misled.

The sad thing is that this conflict will remain so, until the great powers decide otherwise.

"preservation of the special character of nations is essential for progress"....quote by some Jewish guy (i forgot who)

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by atoll

that is a typical response I would expect from someone engaged in the current misinformation project of the isreali government.

"Gam zu I tova". This too is for the good, Nachum Ish Gam zu, The Tal mud

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

A bird that you set free may be caught again,but a word that escapes your lips will not return..Jewish quote... also, a pessimist when confronted with 2 bad choices chooses both..

Kol Tov my friend.