Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

[jckb]

Originally Posted by Barra

"This tax applies to non-EU boats, and the intention is to abolish the tax presently paid after 3 months"

Good point, that's ambiguous! I'll correct it on the CA site.

Better would be:

"This tax will apply both to EU boats, and to non-EU boats. It is the intention of the [Ministry] to abolish the cruising tax presently paid 3 monthly by non-EU craft"

The Ministry says "intention" because the exact wording of the new MD (leisure craft law's implementation covering these matters) is still under discussion. I'll have to wait for the draft law wording to answer the point about transit logs (next quote) definitively - but I'l look out for the point. Thanks for bringing it up, Palarran.

Originally Posted by Palarran

Does this mean that I can go to Turkey for two weeks and still be considered permanent to Greece and get the 30% reduction? Normally I would have to surrender my Transit Log upon leaving Greece and then re-apply for one on re-entry. How will this work now?

I read the reply about non-EU craft as meaning that the idea is that EU and non-EU boats will be treated identically.

The 11 month rule for boat residence was part of a 2004 ruling allowing discounts for resident boats (MD 3342/04/04 if you really want to know!) which is currently still in force. So as things stand you could go to Turkey for 4 weeks without jeapardising your boat's "residence".

Small Greek commercial leisure boats which ply back and forth between Turkey and Greece miss out on this old ruling. So we've joined with them to ask for the 30% discount to be apply to all >12m boats which pay up front for the year. "We will take your suggestion into consideration [when the MD will be revised]" was the reply.

JimB

[jckb]

Originally Posted by Palarran

My boat is normally on the hard for 9 months per year, how will this be handled? If the tax isn't charged when on the hard, maybe it would be best to pay by the month?

Once/if it's clear you won't need to have a transit log - Pay by the month! Your costs will drop radically.

JimB

[jckb]

Originally Posted by MacG

That you have to pay for using 'Mare Librum' with no added values is pure piracy.

It is a stupid measurement, made by a desperate government. It will cost them, because it is no real tax but more a punishment for entering Greek waters.

To be pedantic, there is no charge for transiting Mare Librum. The Greek Ministry has made clear that UNCLOS lll , the right of innocent passage, will be respected.

The charge only kicks in if you anchor, moor or dock, when "a strict interpretion of innocent passage" will be applied, according to the ministry.

JimB

[jckb]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I wonder will this tax get challenged by Brussels as it inhibits the free movement of EU goods already in free circulation.

We looked into that. "Means of Transport" (MoT) within EU (boats, planes and cars etc) have special rules governing how circulation taxes may be paid, and when they must be paid locally, as apart from home country.

Broadly, your MoT may have free circulation within another EU country for up to a maximum of 180 days, or as long as its home country circulation taxes are paid and valid if that's an earlier date. After that, your MoT must be declared to local authorities, who will require temporary import. This will involve meeting all the local country's regulations. See Time Abroad | JimB Sail ; "Within EU" section, third para "Your boat's residence"

Two snags. Many EU boat don't pay local circulation taxes, so they're not up to date with payments! Second, do you really want to go through temporary import procedures whenever you wish to base your boat in another country for over 180 days? Greece allows any length of residence to other EU boats.

So, be careful what you wish about "Free movement within the EU". Think of those boats in Spain which got hit with "pollution taxes" of about 20% of the boat's value for not declaring boat import . . .

JimB

[MacG]

Here is no snag at all but simple things: In some EU countries (SOME) you pay for using inland waterways. F.e. France, UK and Belgium. In Holland (yet) no taxes at all. Except here and there a lock and/or bridge (Friesland). But no general taxation.
In Belgium you have to buy a vignet, same for France (inland waterways only) and they are flexible varying from 1 month to one year. And quite reasonable.

The phrase "they are not up with payments" looks like wrong and misleading ......

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by jckb

We looked into that. "Means of Transport" (MoT) within EU (boats, planes and cars etc) have special rules governing how circulation taxes may be paid, and when they must be paid locally, as apart from home country.

Broadly, your MoT may have free circulation within another EU country for up to a maximum of 180 days, or as long as its home country circulation taxes are paid and valid if that's an earlier date. After that, your MoT must be declared to local authorities, who will require temporary import. This will involve meeting all the local country's regulations. See Time Abroad | JimB Sail ; "Within EU" section, third para "Your boat's residence"

Two snags. Many EU boat don't pay local circulation taxes, so they're not up to date with payments! Second, do you really want to go through temporary import procedures whenever you wish to base your boat in another country for over 180 days? Greece allows any length of residence to other EU boats.

So, be careful what you wish about "Free movement within the EU". Think of those boats in Spain which got hit with "pollution taxes" of about 20% of the boat's value for not declaring boat import . . .

JimB

The matriculation tax in Spain ( which morphed into a pollution carbon tax after the EU gave Spain a belt of the crozier ) was 12%

I agree re your points in general. But since you are not importing the boat into Greece , if you are not resident, I fail to see how circulation taxes can be applied. I mean it would be like driving to Greece and getting taxed at the border on having a car in Greece at all.

I really wonder if this tax will see the light of day in the end. Administering the month by month version will be pure hassle for port authorities. ( not to mention getting the Italians to pay at all !!)

Dave



Dave

[Alenka]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for keeping everyone up to date.

The rules regarding 12m plus boats are still a little confusing when it comes to the discount.

I am 13.5m. I will spend 5 months in the water this year so assume I will pay tax for just those months. But... the rest of the time will be on the hard (in Greece). You state whether in the water or ashore boats staying in Greece for 11 months will get a 30% discount.

Does this mean I will get a 30% dscount off the five months; Or is it 30% off a full year of payment, which is how I read it the first time around.

I know you were also pushing for a month to be four weeks rather than a calendar month so there wasn't a rush to launch on the first day of every month and haul out on the last day of any month. It is bad enough trying to book a lift already. Any news on this issue?

Alas, I do believe this tax will come into being. Because it will create paperwork and paperwork requires people to perform it.... Which creates jobs. And right now there is a desperate need to create jobs in Greece. Sadly, if there is a downturn in visitors then it will probably cost more jobs than it creates, but only time will tell.

[jckb]

Alenka, for 12.1m upwards - the following logic tree applies:

Either discount for whole year (if 11 months within Greek territory - including ashore, current regs, may change)

Or pay monthly,

And if neither, pay full rate

And if none of the above, and if caught, pay 200% of full rate

---------------

And Dave, thanks for correction 20% to 12%.

JimB

[krissteyn]

I understand that these posts are all specific to Greece : is their any comment from the posters on what Cyprus is doing - I am on the Greek / Cyprus side in Latchi with a SSR registered boat - VAT paid as it was imported from South Africa. Hoping they will not make life difficult
Kris

[jckb]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

But since you are not importing the boat into Greece , if you are not resident, I fail to see how circulation taxes can be applied. I mean it would be like driving to Greece and getting taxed at the border on having a car in Greece at all.

If you arrive at a border in your vehicle in any EU country with your home circulation taxes unpaid, or they become unpaid during your stay, and you don't apply to import the vehicle temporarily (paying local circulation taxes etc) you can be fined, and forced to pay local circulation taxes before you're permitted to use the car again.

A number of vehicles (mostly camper vans) have been fined when catching ferries home from Greece in September (a) for being in Greece longer than 180 days without notifying the authorities (b) home circulation taxes expired.

JimB

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by jckb

If you arrive at a border in your vehicle in any EU country with your home circulation taxes unpaid, or they become unpaid during your stay, and you don't apply to import the vehicle temporarily (paying local circulation taxes etc) you can be fined, and forced to pay local circulation taxes before you're permitted to use the car again.

A number of vehicles (mostly camper vans) have been fined when catching ferries home from Greece in September (a) for being in Greece longer than 180 days without notifying the authorities (b) home circulation taxes expired.

JimB

I would question the first statement that you must have home circulation taxes paid to drive abroad. Another EU country can't collect another's taxes nor fine you either. They can only apply their tax law


I think with cars its 90 days in most Eu
countries after that you have to register

[NornaBiron]

Originally Posted by krissteyn

I understand that these posts are all specific to Greece : is their any comment from the posters on what Cyprus is doing - I am on the Greek / Cyprus side in Latchi with a SSR registered boat - VAT paid as it was imported from South Africa. Hoping they will not make life difficult
Kris

Cyprus is NOT part of Greece, none of this applies there.

[Alenka]

Originally Posted by NornaBiron

Cyprus is NOT part of Greece, none of this applies there.

Unless you sail to one of the other Greek Islands or the Greek mainland!

[NornaBiron]

Originally Posted by Alenka

Unless you sail to one of the other Greek Islands or the Greek mainland!

In which case you are then in Greece not Cyprus.

[Alenka]

Originally Posted by jckb

Alenka, for 12.1m upwards - the following logic tree applies:

Either discount for whole year (if 11 months within Greek territory - including ashore, current regs, may change)

Or pay monthly,

And if neither, pay full rate

And if none of the above, and if caught, pay 200% of full rate

---------------


JimB

Thanks for the clarification Jim.

Over the weekend I received an email from my marina offering discounts for this summer! I honestly don't know if this is the first indication that people are not committing to Greece this year or not, but non-the-less I was suprised to receive it.