Mexican Navy vaccinated us

[jeanathon]

Originally Posted by JasonS

And yes, the more that are vaccinated the less the possibility of a variant that is much more deadly.

We have the flu vaccine, but it mutates several times every year. Can you explain your statement?

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Bycrick

Sorry, but I have no intention of telling you where I am. I’m a guest in a foreign country and it’s not my place to tell them how they should, or shouldn’t run it. You clearly aren’t reading any news, because school districts, colleges, football teams, the US government, and many other organizations are demanding that people get the vaccination or they’ll be fined, fired or otherwise penalized. Passing laws, like "wash your hands" is one thing. Placing supervisors in every restaurant to enforce the laws is something else. As an example, the other night, I was in a large chain restaurant. The bar tender was washing the glasses, by hand, in a sink, then rinsing them in tap water. Am I supposed to raise a stink because their dishwashing doesn’t meet NSF requirements? Do you seriously think that every street restaurant meets your sanitary requirements? Every business now has to have a thermometer and an alcohol dispenser at the door. This morning, I had to go to a clinic to get some blood tests. Only about half the people entering used the thermometer and not one used the alcohol. Nobody was standing there watching them, and "enforcing" all the laws.

On this very forum recently, there was a thread about whether or not unvaccinated people should be denied medical care if they got COVID. I’m curious if some of the same people might not have been the ones advocating universal health care as a human right. It’s a human right only as long as you do what the government thinks you should? Obviously, anybody who disagrees with your position must have your imagined ""defiant delusional disorder."

Regardless of what YOU think is right, one doesn’t necessarily have the unilateral right to insist that everyone else agree with your version of "the greater good." And even "law-abiding" countries like Australia and Canada are developing groups that are demonstrating against the heavy-handed tactics of "well-meaning" governments.

So I'm a bit baffled. You start out by telling us the U.S. should be doing things like the place you are in, but then it becomes a big secret to tell us where that place is?

Again, the government isn't fining anyone in the U.S. for failure to get a vaccine, if you believe that you really need to go from your top secret location to the U.S. to see for yourself. But in fact, at least everywhere I've lived in the U.S. we have health department inspectors who in fact do come into restaurants and enforce sanitation rules, and it's not at all unheard of to have them shut down restaurants that are out of compliance so supervisors also do enforce those rules. And yeah, you get fired if you defecate and then fix food in most restaurants without washing your hands, because relativism aside we as a society have in fact decided that things like feces in food aren't "right". That's how societies work, deciding what is "right" and what isn't in all facets of life but especially when it comes to public health. So while I don't get to decide what's right, public health officials do when it comes to public health measures and have been doing so for as long as I've been around. Here in the U.S. the man gets to insist on some health measures if you want the privilege of getting paid, are you seriously advocating for full freedom for employees to disregard any health health or safety rule they wish simply because they suffer from oppositional defiant disorder? And by the way, although it sounds like you may not have heard of it, that's a real DSM-5 disorder, most common in children. Like all mental illnesses, it's definitely not "imagined" if you've had to experience it first hand.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by jeanathon

We have the flu vaccine, but it mutates several times every year. Can you explain your statement?

What percentage of the world's population or even the U.S. population fail to get the flu vaccine every year? The real answer is far more nuanced, but your statement actually provides more evidence of the point you're disputing

[jeanathon]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

What percentage of the world's population or even the U.S. population fail to get the flu vaccine every year? The real answer is far more nuanced, but your statement actually provides more evidence of the point you're disputing

Where in my question did you see a dispute? Secondly my question was directed at Jason S since I quoted him.
Reading comprehension, it's not just for students.

[larsfforsberg]

Originally Posted by EngineerRetired

Excellent!


The US is treating this as a political issue, the rest of the world see's it as it is, a very real life threatening health issue. (Thank God)

Only life threatening for a small segment of the population. How many times does the data need to be repeated? And, have you seen the protests in Europe and Australia? I haven't seen any protests in the US - there probably are a few, but not on the scale of Europe and Australia, as those continents have become prison colonies. YOU are the one treating it as a political issue. I see it as a health choice. Get the vaccine if you are worried about it; don't get it if you are healthy and not worried. These things should not be us vs. them. Stop buying into the divide and conquer philosophy while accusing other of doing so - it's called projection. I have no problem with you getting the "vaccine". Why do you have a problem with people not getting it? You're "safe" now, right? Make sure you don't look at the numbers from Israel.......

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by larsfforsberg

Only life threatening for a small segment of the population. How many times does the data need to be repeated? And, have you seen the protests in Europe and Australia? I haven't seen any protests in the US - there probably are a few, but not on the scale of Europe and Australia, as those continents have become prison colonies. YOU are the one treating it as a political issue. I see it as a health choice. Get the vaccine if you are worried about it; don't get it if you are healthy and not worried. These things should not be us vs. them. Stop buying into the divide and conquer philosophy while accusing other of doing so - it's called projection. I have no problem with you getting the "vaccine". Why do you have a problem with people not getting it? You're "safe" now, right? Make sure you don't look at the numbers from Israel.......

Europe is virtually completely open. We even allow Americans to visit ( a privilege denied us in the land of the free ) I’m not sure what “ prison “ you mention

Remaining restrictions are very minor

Public health is not and never was an individual choice.

No country I know of is “ enforcing “ vaccinations. They are many however that are differentiating between those vaccinated abs those not. That is right and proper as those exercising their “ right” to not be vaccinated are subject to societies restrictions Nothing new to see here.

[larsfforsberg]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Europe is virtually completely open. We even allow Americans to visit ( a privilege denied us in the land of the free ) I’m not sure what “ prison “ you mention

Remaining restrictions are very minor

Public health is not and never was an individual choice.

No country I know of is “ enforcing “ vaccinations. They are many however that are differentiating between those vaccinated abs those not. That is right and proper.

So there aren't "green pass" protests in Europe?...or whatever the gov is calling them? Are you denying that vast portions of Australia are not allowed to leave their homes? Read some real research, not funded by drug companies....please. I'm just asking you to please spread your intellectual wings. Look into the vacc rates in Israel. What has it accomplished?

[Bycrick]

Ah, hair splitting again. Delta Airlines wants to fine unvaccinated people $200/month. Hospitals in Texas can fire unvaccinated people (recent Supreme Court decision). NFL fines player $15k for violating mask rules. How many more do you need? Why is it suddenly un-American to not just "do what you’re told?" Why is it a surprise that some people actually get defiant when others try to tell them what they have to do? This isn’t a generic discussion of exactly what laws/rules you think are justifiable. Laws work only so long as enough people believe that they’re just and reasonable. For example, the unworkable prohibitions on drugs and alcohol. The current attempts to declare guns or evictions as "public health" problems are examples of trying to leverage public health "mandates" for other social purposes.

I don’t find it a bit "defiant" for people to say "If you want to change the law, there’s a process. Get the votes and change it." Politicians deciding to "mandate" this-that-or-the other because they can’t get the votes just invites defiance.

As to where I’m at, that has nothing to do with what happens in the US.

[larsfforsberg]

I'm in favor of enforcing BMI restrictions, and smoking tests. If you are fat or smoke, you no longer get health care or are allowed to work, because obviously you are going to cost the company more money in health care costs, and you may fall ill while in my country, because you chose to eat too many carbs. You are a sick person - sorry, but we can't have you here. And, you say you are over 60 years old??? What? Sorry, you can't come here. You will probably get sick. You are too old. Also, you can't drive, as your vision and reflexes are no longer good enough. See where this goes? This is fun for me.

[ixnax]

Originally Posted by larsfforsberg

Only life threatening for a small segment of the population. How many times does the data need to be repeated? And, have you seen the protests in Europe and Australia? I haven't seen any protests in the US - there probably are a few, but not on the scale of Europe and Australia, as those continents have become prison colonies. YOU are the one treating it as a political issue. I see it as a health choice. Get the vaccine if you are worried about it; don't get it if you are healthy and not worried. These things should not be us vs. them. Stop buying into the divide and conquer philosophy while accusing other of doing so - it's called projection. I have no problem with you getting the "vaccine". Why do you have a problem with people not getting it? You're "safe" now, right? Make sure you don't look at the numbers from Israel.......

Data are that 90- 98% of currently hospitalized Covid patients are unvaccinated. ICU's beds are in limited supply, especially where there is a high percentage of unvaccinated people. Each day we either learn about or find that we know someone who was denied hospitalization because the beds were filled with unvaccinated Covid patients. Just yesterday I read about a two tour veteran of the war in Afghanistan in Texas who died waiting for a transfer to anywhere that could do a basic but life saving operation. Maybe my world view is twisted but to my way of thinking it's not personal choice until you also choose to suffer the consequences.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by jeanathon

Where in my question did you see a dispute? Secondly my question was directed at Jason S since I quoted him.
Reading comprehension, it's not just for students.

My answer was a little nuanced, I apologize. Let me more explicitly spell it out.

1. Jason stated that the more people are vaccinated the less chance for mutation.
2. Perhaps I have this wrong, what with my reading comprehension issues and all, but it appeared you disagreed with him, and to make your point you said "We have the flu vaccine, but it mutates several times every year." That would seem to mean that you believe the flu vaccine is a counter example that undercuts Jason S' point and makes it less valid.
3. Just about 50% of the U.S. population over 18 gets the flu vaccine most years. Jason S' point is that at current U.S. COVID vaccination rates, which it just so happens are just above 50%, there is a high chance of mutation compared to if the vaccination rate is higher. The fact that flu mutates several times per year with a nearly identical (and lower than ideal) vaccination rate simply reinforces Jason S' point that vaccination rates need to be higher to avoid mutation.

As I said, the actual science behind mutations is far more nuanced than that, but I just found it amusing that in your attempt to question Jason S' logic you actually reinforced his logic. Apparently without realizing it even still.

Of course it could be that I just am unable to comprehend and you were actually agreeing with Jason S and you believe that vaccination rates in the 50% range do lead to mutations (which after all is what you pointed out) and therefore those resisting vaccination are causing harm to everyone. In that case I apologize, I'm just a dumb redneck with reading comprehension issues

[larsfforsberg]

Originally Posted by ixnax

Data are that 90- 98% of currently hospitalized Covid patients are unvaccinated. ICU's beds are in limited supply, especially where there is a high percentage of unvaccinated people. Each day we either learn about or find that we know someone who was denied hospitalization because the beds were filled with unvaccinated Covid patients. Just yesterday I read about a two tour veteran of the war in Afghanistan in Texas who died waiting for a transfer to anywhere that could do a basic but life saving operation. Maybe my world view is twisted but to my way of thinking it's not personal choice until you also choose to suffer the consequences.

I have friends who died in car wrecks. Do we stop driving? I have yet to meet a single person, even hospitalized from the coves. I had it, I have had friends who had it, my mother had it, her sister had it, girlfriend had it, sister had it - nobody got sicker than me. I had a fever for twelve days. It was no fun, but no big deal either. In your circle, people may be older or in worse health, I don't know - it is sad when people die, sorry about that....seriously, I feel for you. It is often a personal choice to be unhealthy. It is not a choice to be old - that's life. The stats say that the people who DIE have on average FOUR co-morbidities......FOUR. In other words, if you are not diabetic, overweight (the big one), have cancer, or something else, you are probably fine. Being over 70 does not help, but often at that age you have co-morbidities. Of course there will be the extremely rare situation where a young healthy person gets really sick or dies, but it is exceedingly rare. I'll take my natural antibodies, thank you.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by larsfforsberg

I have friends who died in car wrecks. Do we stop driving? I have yet to meet a single person, even hospitalized from the coves. I had it, I have had friends who had it, my mother had it, her sister had it, girlfriend had it, sister had it - nobody got sicker than me. I had a fever for twelve days. It was no fun, but no big deal either. In your circle, people may be older or in worse health, I don't know - it is sad when people die, sorry about that....seriously, I feel for you. It is often a personal choice to be unhealthy. It is not a choice to be old - that's life. The stats say that the people who DIE have on average FOUR co-morbidities......FOUR. In other words, if you are not diabetic, overweight (the big one), have cancer, or something else, you are probably fine. Being over 70 does not help, but often at that age you have co-morbidities. Of course there will be the extremely rare situation where a young healthy person gets really sick or dies, but it is exceedingly rare. I'll take my natural antibodies, thank you.

The whole "but people die in car accidents" line of thinking is very instructive. At one point in time we used to think seat belts were not only unnecessary but an invasion of our rights and a "personal choice". Then most of us realized a quick, painless, easy thing like hooking up your seat belt actually saves about 15,000 lives per year and now at least 90% of us do it because there's really no good reason not to. Do any of us say "people die in car accidents, so I shouldn't hook up my seatbelt" or "even people with seatbelts on sometimes die in car accidents, therefore we shouldn't use seatbelts" or "I don't know anyone who has died from not using a seatbelt, therefore I shouldn't use a seatbelt" or "people who die in car accidents without seatbelts often are doing 3 or 4 other things wrong that led to the accident, therefore I shouldn't wear a seatbelt" Those statements are obviosly nonsensical at least to most of us, but their exactly the kind of logic you just articulated for not spending a few minutes of two days to get a safe, effective, and free vaccine. And given that over 600,000 people died of Covid in the U.S. during the same time about 37,000 died from car accidents, it's more than an order of magnitude bigger cause of death you're avoiding with that simple action. Just like using your seatbelt, there's tons of benefit and no good reason not to.

[jeanathon]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

My answer was a little nuanced, I apologize. Let me more explicitly spell it out.

1. Jason stated that the more people are vaccinated the less chance for mutation.
2. Perhaps I have this wrong, what with my reading comprehension issues and all, but it appeared you disagreed with him, and to make your point you said "We have the flu vaccine, but it mutates several times every year." That would seem to mean that you believe the flu vaccine is a counter example that undercuts Jason S' point and makes it less valid.
3. Just about 50% of the U.S. population over 18 gets the flu vaccine most years. Jason S' point is that at current U.S. COVID vaccination rates, which it just so happens are just above 50%, there is a high chance of mutation compared to if the vaccination rate is higher. The fact that flu mutates several times per year with a nearly identical (and lower than ideal) vaccination rate simply reinforces Jason S' point that vaccination rates need to be higher to avoid mutation.

As I said, the actual science behind mutations is far more nuanced than that, but I just found it amusing that in your attempt to question Jason S' logic you actually reinforced his logic. Apparently without realizing it even still.

Of course it could be that I just am unable to comprehend and you were actually agreeing with Jason S and you believe that vaccination rates in the 50% range do lead to mutations (which after all is what you pointed out) and therefore those resisting vaccination are causing harm to everyone. In that case I apologize, I'm just a dumb redneck with reading comprehension issues

My point is that I doubt Jason S understands virus mutations and was simply parroting what he had been told, but I wanted to give him the opportunity to explain his statement.
Since you have done your best to explain virus mutations for him I know you do not understand them, and are merely parroting.

While I commend your faith in what you are parroting it is just faith. JW.org

[larsfforsberg]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

The whole "but people die in car accidents" line of thinking is very instructive. At one point in time we used to think seat belts were not only unnecessary but an invasion of our rights and a "personal choice". Then most of us realized a quick, painless, easy thing like hooking up your seat belt actually saves about 15,000 lives per year and now at least 90% of us do it because there's really no good reason not to. Do any of us say "people die in car accidents, so I shouldn't hook up my seatbelt" or "even people with seatbelts on sometimes die in car accidents, therefore we shouldn't use seatbelts" or "I don't know anyone who has died from not using a seatbelt, therefore I shouldn't use a seatbelt" or "people who die in car accidents without seatbelts often are doing 3 or 4 other things wrong that led to the accident, therefore I shouldn't wear a seatbelt" Those statements are obviosly nonsensical at least to most of us, but their exactly the kind of logic you just articulated for not spending a few minutes of two days to get a safe, effective, and free vaccine. And given that over 600,000 people died of Covid in the U.S. during the same time about 37,000 died from car accidents, it's more than an order of magnitude bigger cause of death you're avoiding with that simple action. Just like using your seatbelt, there's tons of benefit and no good reason not to.

UGH. 600,000 people did not die of covid. For Pete's sake learn where that false number comes from. How many times does it have to be said - FOUR CO-MORBIDITIES ON AVERAGE.


Five percent of that number actually died of covid. Please stop repeating that BS number. The math is so simple. Holy cow man. You take the vaccine, I'll just be healthy. Your personal experience has nothing to do with the 99% survival rate of covid. I can't believe that people are buying into this crap. Eat less sugar, eat less doughnuts, don't smoke, go for a walk once in a while. Don't be an alcoholic, or a drug addict. Relax. The paranoia over this thing is off the charts.