Covid plan B for Canada staying closed

[Senojev]

Maine would be a long way from WA but actually has a longer coastline than BC at around 3500 miles.

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by Senojev

Maine would be a long way from WA but actually has a longer coastline than BC at around 3500 miles.

Um, the BC coastline is over 25,725 kilometres (15,985 mi).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Columbia_Coast

[Tessellate]

Yes, Maine definitely doesn't have anywhere near the coastline of BC.

When I said in my post that BC had 600 to 2000+ of coastline, I was really talking about perceived coastal distances and saying it's well over 2000 but 600 is the lowest anyone could really consider it (straight-line from WA to AK). Realistically even 600 is an underestimate for a straight-line transit. Scorpius corrected me (my "2000+" was misleading because it's way too small) but I probably shouldn't have put a number in to begin with. I was trying not to set the bar too high - BC sets an unfairly high bar.

Literal coastline length isn't really a relevant measurement in my opinion because no one, not even a kayaker, would literally trace the length of the coastline. When I think of coastline as it relates to coastal cruising, I think how far can you sail along an approximate line, with some detours into inlets / harbors along that line.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by edlepera

I think it’s ridiculous Of all these border closures to cruisers who can self isolate.

But not all of them do. And we have enough trouble just managing our own contact tracing and testing. For some reason many Yanks think they can go anywhere and do anything they please, local rules and wishes be damned. It's not a pleasant attribute.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by Tessellate

Yes, Maine definitely doesn't have anywhere near the coastline of BC.

When I said in my post that BC had 600 to 2000+ of coastline, I was really talking about perceived coastal distances and saying it's well over 2000 but 600 is the lowest anyone could really consider it (straight-line from WA to AK). Realistically even 600 is an underestimate for a straight-line transit. Scorpius corrected me (my "2000+" was misleading because it's way too small) but I probably shouldn't have put a number in to begin with. I was trying not to set the bar too high - BC sets an unfairly high bar.

Literal coastline length isn't really a relevant measurement in my opinion because no one, not even a kayaker, would literally trace the length of the coastline. When I think of coastline as it relates to coastal cruising, I think how far can you sail along an approximate line, with some detours into inlets / harbors along that line.

Some of us HAVE sailed the vast majority of the BC coast line. I worked on it in the fishing industry and have been sailing on it most summers for the 35 years I have had Scorpius (the four years offshore excepted) - and I don't like going back to the same places multiple times - although obviously I do.

There are several very comprehensive guide books of this coast written by people who REALLY HAVE sailed pretty well every inch (which was to be the name of MY guide book: Every Inch, a Guide to Sailing the BC Coast ). Even the couple who put out Waggoners every year, which covers Puget Sound, the San Juan Islands, and Alaska, as well as BC, have had personal experience with the vast majority of it.

[Tessellate]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

Some of us HAVE sailed the vast majority of the BC coast line. I worked on it in the fishing industry and have been sailing on it most summers for the 35 years I have had Scorpius (the four years offshore excepted) - and I don't like going back to the same places multiple times - although obviously I do.

There are several very comprehensive guide books of this coast written by people who REALLY HAVE sailed pretty well every inch (which was to be the name of MY guide book: Every Inch, a Guide to Sailing the BC Coast ). Even the couple who put out Waggoners every year, which covers Puget Sound, the San Juan Islands, and Alaska, as well as BC, have had personal experience with the vast majority of it.

Hi Scorpius - I meant no disrespect. But what I was trying to say is literal coastline length - say 17,500 miles - isn't a very useful measurement. Even if you have *seen* every inch of coastline, doing so doesn't require sailing/motoring each inch of the coastline.

I'm assuming this coastline length estimate is a fractal-based approximation - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastline_paradox

Ie, total coastline is the sum of all indents, headlands and harbors (navigable or not) into every island and mainland coast. A small island could have a coastline length of 20 nm while sailing or motoring around it requires going only 10 nm. The wikipedia article I linked is interesting. Basically, it's impossible to come up with an accurate measure of total coastline length. As sailors, I think what's more relevant is something like how far can we go while still seeing land we haven't seen before?

[Tessellate]

Originally Posted by Toaster

It's discouraging to see so many sail boats motoring, mostly because it seems they think they "have to". Maybe they do. Shameless plug: Before we left, my wife wrote a book about how to sail rather than motor in the area. It's called "Taken by the Wind: The Northwest Coast", self-published on Amazon. She also had an article in May 2020 in Sail Magazine about sailing in the area.

Now, we are in the same "boat" as you - though in our case we are in Hawaii. Our grand plans of taking off this year for Kiribati, Micronesia and other Pacific cruising grounds like NZ are gone, probably for good. We are contemplating sailing from here to Alaska next spring, and returning to our old cruising grounds of SE AK, BC and Puget Sound.

Hi! We have your wife's book as well - it was instrumental in figuring out how to sail some of the trickier inner waterways like Johnstone and Fitz Hugh Sound. Hopefully you make it back up here, because you need to add a chapter on the west coast of Vancouver Island - we had to figure everything out on our own over there. Quite tricky too, with all the diurnal effects in the sounds.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by Tessellate

Hi Scorpius - I meant no disrespect. But what I was trying to say is literal coastline length - say 17,500 miles - isn't a very useful measurement. Even if you have *seen* every inch of coastline, doing so doesn't require sailing/motoring each inch of the coastline.

I'm assuming this coastline length estimate is a fractal-based approximation - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastline_paradox

Ie, total coastline is the sum of all indents, headlands and harbors (navigable or not) into every island and mainland coast. A small island could have a coastline length of 20 nm while sailing or motoring around it requires going only 10 nm. The wikipedia article I linked is interesting. Basically, it's impossible to come up with an accurate measure of total coastline length. As sailors, I think what's more relevant is something like how far can we go while still seeing land we haven't seen before?

Absolutely true - but my comment was in response to someone saying Maine, with a 3500 mile coastline (longer than the total US eastern seaboard, straight line) had a longer coast line than BC; a statement which is clearly wrong. As long as we are using about the same techniques to measure the coastlines, my comment is valid: BC's coast line is MUCH longer than Maine's. Clearly you don't have to sail 17,000 miles to see all of the BC coast line (whose length varies with the tide ) but it is an appropriate way to do comparisons.

I'm not sure there is a standardized measurement of how far one would have to sail (or motor) to "see" all of a particular coast line. How close to the end of each inlet would you have to go to "see" it before turning around? If you travel the middle of Georgia or Johnstone straits, would you "see" both sides or would you have to make two trips: one in each direction.

Remember that the original post was talking going from Washington State to Alaska - which can be done in about 600 miles - and is actually pretty straight even doing the Inside Passage. It's the detours that present the great opportunities for exploring - and there are oodles of them!

Take care.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by David Mathis

Try the Great Lakes but if you need mountains, try Lake Champlain. It's 120 miles long and located between the Adirondack Mountains of New York and the Green Mountains of Vermont. It has numerous anchorages and marinas. However, it freezes over in the winter (no all year boating in the far north east) and occasionally gets into tropical temperatures in the summer.

Those are mountains? I'm sorry but I've skied in the east and the lift lines start before you are half way down the run (an exaggeration but you get my point). Give me Whistler (with a 5200 foot vertical drop) to ski or Princess Louisa Inlet (where you have 3500 foot cliffs rising straight up out of the water and you can tie to the beach with your depth sounder showing over 300 feet of water under you) anytime.

[mark lennoc]

Originally Posted by Tessellate

Are there any cruising areas of the world that are like BC and WA but are not in Canada?

Reason I ask: We've been waiting for 6 months to enter Canada (we missed the border closure by only 2 weeks) - and are about ready to throw in the towel and come up with a plan B for 2021. We're full-time cruisers and BC is the only place we want to cruise (currently in WA). So we're stuck in the position where we can't go north and don't want to go south (we don't like tropical / hot weather sailing - I know that may seem weird and picky, but those who have spent a lot of time in BC will understand).

If the border remains closed past March 2021 we'll miss another year (Mar-Sept) and would rather stop cruising if that's the case (WA is great but not big enough, personally, for 24 months of cruising - we've already done 12 months here), or find a plan B.

I know many think Canada will open in 2021 but I don't think that's a sure thing (and don't really want to get into that here) - let's just say their willingness to keep the border closed has far exceeded my expectations, so I'm betting on worst case scenarios now. The month to month extensions don't give us enough time to plan for alternatives. If we're going to stop cruising or find a plan B we need more than 1-2 months to plan.

Are there any places like BC, not in Canada, that we could perhaps buy or charter in? A BC replacement would have:

• lots of trees and mountains
• at least 500 miles of coastline
• hundreds to thousands of anchorages
• not too hot (40F to 70F most of the time)
• short distances between anchorages (20-40nm) in most places

AK meets that but I'm not sure how feasible chartering there is given the shorter season. I hear Maine is popular but I don't think it meets the size requirement - it's only 100-150mi, tiny compared to BC's 600 to 2000+ miles coastline.

The Canadians say they have enjoyed not having Americans in their waters. Apparently, the anchorages don’t have all the large yachts with their generators running and a lot less outboards ripping around the bays and a whole lot less bad mannered boaters. It looks like we have a bad reputation and are going to pay for it. When they do finally open the border don’t expect to be welcomed back.

[mark lennoc]

The Canadians say they have enjoyed not having Americans in their waters. Apparently, the anchorages don’t have all the large yachts with their generators running and a lot less outboards ripping around the bays and a whole lot less bad mannered boaters. It looks like we have a bad reputation and are going to pay for it. When they do finally open the border don’t expect to be welcomed back.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by mark lennoc

The Canadians say they have enjoyed not having Americans in their waters. Apparently, the anchorages don’t have all the large yachts with their generators running and a lot less outboards ripping around the bays and a whole lot less bad mannered boaters. It looks like we have a bad reputation and are going to pay for it. When they do finally open the border don’t expect to be welcomed back.

Mark, who are "the Canadians?" I'm a Canadian, and I certainly have not said this. I assume this comes from a credible survey or analysis. Can you link to it?

Tourists everywhere come as a double-edged sword. They bring in valued revenue and support lots of local economic activity, but they also bring in more people, some of whom will be boors.

[sv_pelagia]

Unfortunately, there are many Canadians also with large yachts, big RIBs with big engines, and those irritating "sea lice" (personal water craft, seadoos, etc).

But yes, this past Summer, the decrease in number of boats, especially from south of the border, did have a positive effect. We were able to go to (and enjoy!) parts of Desolation Sound we normally stay away from in July/August.

[hpeer]

I was thinking maybe the Bahamas would have a different opinion. Seems half the boats there are Canadian.

Being a dualie I have no dog in this fight.

[edlepera]

I did a long weekend on the water in the Bremerton Washington area. Barely scratch the surface I told the wife I would need a couple of months to explore Puget Sound properly