Modern lithium setup for boats

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Pete7

We have no 12v kitchen appliances, they all run at 230v off the inverters.

Yes Jedi maybe right, we may be out of context with 12v. However, we built systems progressively rather than rip everything out and start afresh.

Should we change from 12v to 24v? That is a huge amount of work and at no small cost. Difficult to justify if the current 12v system works for us. There comes a point of 'sod it, lets go sailing instead'.

Pete

As long as everything works that's fine. But when something (more costly) fails and it's time to upgrade/renew worth a thought.. For me building from scratch up it's easy choice.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

As long as everything works that's fine. But when something (more costly) fails and it's time to upgrade/renew worth a thought.. For me building from scratch up it's easy choice.

Building from scratch where you have to buy and wire everything anyway, I agree, a higher voltage house bank is a no brainer. It's only a debate for boats with significant existing systems where you have to balance additional cost, work, and complexity to upgrade vs the performance benefits of the higher voltage.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

As long as everything works that's fine. But when something (more costly) fails and it's time to upgrade/renew worth a thought.. For me building from scratch up it's easy choice.

Absolutely, if we were starting again then yes to 24v, possibly 48v. I couldn't find a 24v VHF for a previous boat, but that was a while back. Sailing Uma had a 48v windlass made for them by Lewmar I think, with the idea Lewmar would introduce this as an option in the future. Our little Ford Fiesta mild hybrid car has a 48v generator to charge the LFP during regen. Sterling has recently introduced 48v inverter so becoming possible.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by JeffOnTheBoat

Okay, that makes sense. Except for I have a Balmer 170A alternator with a Wakespeed regulator. Looks like the Orion would limit my charging to 15A at 24V, 30A from the alternator. To maximize charging from my alternator looks like I would need 5 12/24-15A Orions. Hmm, is that correct? My goal is to use the engine as a generator to fast charge the house lithium batteries. I could instead connect the Wakespeed WS500 directly to the 24V. Then I would need a shutoff signal from the batteries to the Wakespeed and a surge protector. Any better suggestions? Don't you have a high output alternator in you system. My Solar holds me for a few day's but need to top off with the engine every now and then. Ya, add more solar, but not so easy on my boats current configuration.

I have the same 170A Balmar and two of those Orions. As the alternator also supplies all 12V loads, incl. charging the start battery, running the autopilot etc., I find that the alternator gets hot enough to my liking. But of course I also don’t want to charge as fast as possible as motoring often takes longer for us during calms.

I recommend you either wait for the new generation of Orion’s of which the first has just been launched (a 12-12V 50A unit with 98.5% efficiency) or look at the Mastervolt offerings. I found they have bidirectional converters that would fit your application wonderfully. I have no experience with them but Mastervolt is also a respected high quality manufacturer like Victron. Both from Holland of course

[kaz911]

Thanks to all for their input on this thread it is great reading.

We bought a 1998 Najad 490 50' running 24v/12v at the moment.

The Najad needs a LOT of TLC as it has not been well maintained for the last 6-7 years and "modded" by random incompetent installers around the planet.

So there is lots of work to do. We will upgrade the AC/DC systems. But so far I have not decided if we stay 24/12 or go 48/24/12.

Big drains on 24v - Bow Thruster, Anchor Winch & 3 Andersen winches. Winch will be replaced. Bow truster is iffy and might get replaced.

12v - a little - but mostly for engine start (Paguro 5000 generator + Yanmar 4JH2)

So I need to have at least enough 24v power so far to "buffer" the big drain devices on 24v.

I have just got the Victron Ekrano GX to act as the "heart" of the new system. (Quadcore version of Cerbo GX for running both Signal K and NodeRed)

So the questions I'm battling with in my head at the moment are:

1. Quattro or Multiplus / MP II? (Quattro for "auto-switch" shorepower / generator)
2. Single Charger/Inverter or dual parallel?
3. Batteries compatible with marine use and Victron - 10-15 kWh
4. Solar panels - planning to redo solar ARC to mirror Mads Sail Life "slide out" panels to fit 4-5 std size panels.

We run a Yanmar 4JH2-UTE engine - with primary alternator for starter batteries + secondary Balmar 912-24v-60a. The Balmer 912 is not the most optimal alternator power source but it seemingly works. We are waiting for engine diagnostics to figure out 4JH2 "viable life" left - but we hope to keep it as it is "mostly" free of electronics/ECU. If engine is good I'll put a Arco Zeus on it.

I already run our house on a Quattro 48v/20kWh system - so I do have some Victron setup experience.

So Master Jedi what would you recommend for a padawan ready to learn..

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by kaz911

Thanks to all for their input on this thread it is great reading.

We bought a 1998 Najad 490 50' running 24v/12v at the moment.

The Najad needs a LOT of TLC as it has not been well maintained for the last 6-7 years and "modded" by random incompetent installers around the planet.

So there is lots of work to do. We will upgrade the AC/DC systems. But so far I have not decided if we stay 24/12 or go 48/24/12.

Big drains on 24v - Bow Thruster, Anchor Winch & 3 Andersen winches. Winch will be replaced. Bow truster is iffy and might get replaced.

12v - a little - but mostly for engine start (Paguro 5000 generator + Yanmar 4JH2)

So I need to have at least enough 24v power so far to "buffer" the big drain devices on 24v.

I have just got the Victron Ekrano GX to act as the "heart" of the new system. (Quadcore version of Cerbo GX for running both Signal K and NodeRed)

So the questions I'm battling with in my head at the moment are:

1. Quattro or Multiplus / MP II? (Quattro for "auto-switch" shorepower / generator)
2. Single Charger/Inverter or dual parallel?
3. Batteries compatible with marine use and Victron - 10-15 kWh
4. Solar panels - planning to redo solar ARC to mirror Mads Sail Life "slide out" panels to fit 4-5 std size panels.

We run a Yanmar 4JH2-UTE engine - with primary alternator for starter batteries + secondary Balmar 912-24v-60a. The Balmer 912 is not the most optimal alternator power source but it seemingly works. We are waiting for engine diagnostics to figure out 4JH2 "viable life" left - but we hope to keep it as it is "mostly" free of electronics/ECU. If engine is good I'll put a Arco Zeus on it.

I already run our house on a Quattro 48v/20kWh system - so I do have some Victron setup experience.

So Master Jedi what would you recommend for a padawan ready to learn..

Lol

First of all, congrats with your boat, I think it’s a solid choice, especially if you have the budget to address the parts that need attention after all those years. Jedi is from 1994 and we are in the process of replacing the upholstery, ceilings, floors etc.

I think you’re good with 24V. The boat is 24V already so a change to 48V wouldn’t have enough benefits for the effort and price I think. Let’s look at the high power consumers and length of cable runs:

Bow thruster and windlass. So these are 24V already. I know nothing about bow thrusters but I do have a large Maxwell 3500 windlass which only needs an 80A breaker at 24V. How big is the breaker for the bow thruster?
For cable run length, I think you may have batteries forward for these already? What type and what capacity did Najad put in for that?

Three electric Anderson winches! I have four electric Lewmar winches and they are only 12V so would love to have those Andersons
Still, my winches work fine on 12V, powered by two dc-dc converters in parallel (60A max) backed up by a single Odyssey PC2150 AGM battery. You should be fine at 24V.

I used to have a Quattro instead of Multiplus. At some point an internal transfer switch failed and I used only the other input and a manual transfer switch. On e a year I switch to generator when we leave and once a year back to shore power when we return. Really not at all worth it for us, especially considering the price difference.

So here my recommendations:

- keep 24V windlass but give it a full maintenance and rebuild where needed.

- keep or if needed replace 24V bow thruster.

- if the bow thruster uses more than 200A then I need to think harder but otherwise I would put a single LiTime 24V 200Ah (or the new 230Ah) battery forward as local boost. No dc-dc converters or anything, just original cabling back to central 24V busbars.

- house batteries also LFP of course. It sounds like you’re very much into Victron control circuits so you may want batteries with CANbus compatibility with Victron. I don’t care about that but there are many offerings for this.
I recommend to build two house batteries, each in the 300-400Ah range. I have 400Ah and it is exactly what feels right. The first two years we did this with just one bank to see if it is enough and it is. So with two you gain redundancy as well as luxury when solar production is down.

- main engine: I have a Yanmar 4LH-HTE and will do everything to keep it for the same reasons as you. I had the oem alternator, I believe a Hitachi 80 or 100A which charged the start battery plus two (!!) extra Lestec Brute 12V 225A (!!) alternators as well as an engine mounted crash pump.
I removed that pump and all three alternators as well as all the brackets and pulleys. That was about half the engine weight! Next I put on a Balmar serpentine belt conversion kit and their 12V 170A alternator with external smart regulator with temperature sensors on the start battery as well as on the alternator. That’s it, no extra alternators anymore and I love it.

- 12V: I have three different 12V systems, each for a specific use and I highly recommend this:

1. Electronics. This is mainly the NMEA2000 network plus the chart plotter/radar. The autopilot is on the regular 12V power feed because it’s high power. I have a completely isolated 12V supply for this, so DC negative is not connected to other DC power. I created this using a small 18Ah AGM battery with an isolated 24V to 12V Smart Orion. I have a double pole breaker between that Orion and the battery so that I can run just off the battery for a while. All this is for lightning protection.
Also: wind instrument and AIS/VHF radios are NOT connected to NMEA2000. I use a wifi bridge for these to create the air gap for 100% isolation in case of lightning strike.

2. AIS/VHF. I use an isolated 24V to 12V dc-dc converter for these. You only need a small (not Smart) one, I use the 120W version.

3. General 12V. This is what used to be the start battery. I replaced the “emergency” switch with a permanent cable to put this on the main 12V busbar. So this is powering any 12V lights, starts the engine, genset and for me powers my 12V winches.
Most of the power comes from two Smart Orion 24/12-30 converters. When peak load is more than 60A the start battery helps. I normally set these converters to power supply mode at the battery float voltage, leaving bulk and absorption charge for the alternator.
For charging the house banks from the alternator I also have two Smart Orion 12/24-15 converters. They detect the alternator and start charging automatically.

- inverter/charger: definitely units in parallel service. I chose the old model Multiplus as there were issues with the MP-II model but I think they worked that out now… it feels a bit cheaper though so I’m happy with the old and trusted MP3000’s.

- solar: I have an array with sliding panels as well. I used large drawer slides but I’m working on something like Mats used I think. My idea is to use rollers with heave aluminum angles. These need rails twice as wide as the panel which means you need to stack panels in three levels while with sliders you have only 2 levels…. but these sliders are 3” high so they take the same amount of space
You need to aim at a minimum of 2kW solar for the array on the stern arch. I have a second 750W array and am planning on converting that to a 2kW array as well

[rslifkin]

Personally, unless you're doing auto generator start, I'd prefer a manual transfer switch (or a way to tell the Quattro to ignore the generator input at times). That allows starting the generator with no load and cutting the load off before shutdown. With auto start and the built in time delays in the newer Victron firmware, then there's no need for the manual switch to achieve that delay.

[JeffOnTheBoat]

S/V Jedi, regarding this part your part 3 general 12V section. The relative complexity of your system brings up a lot of detail questions for me.

What are you using for the start battery, A general purpose battery or Starter battery? Is you Alternator regulator set for LA or LI charging? Is there any mechanism that could cause your Starter batter to discharge and not be able to start the engine?
Thanks for sharing all of this. Fascinating!
Jeff

[Toccata]

Just as a little addition to the discussion,
My boat is primarily 12V
It didn't have a bow thruster fitted.
I have fitted the largest Vetus thruster applicable to a 185mm tunnel. This unit is 24V, and has it's own built in 12v to 24V converter.
Dual AGM batteries at the thruster to make the 24v and I changed the Maxwell anchor winch motor to a 24v unit.
Same capacity and type AGM as my start battery and both banks linked.

[Wandering1]

We run 385Ah of lithium at 24v. We have 900w of solar, a powerful wind turbine that adds 1-1.5kw per day, that also converts to a towed turbine when at sea. We have electric and propane galley. We run on electric 99% of the time at anchor but propane at sea.
We also have a 5kVA diesel genset. Most of the time we run the everything off the lithium at anchor including the 220v watermaker (240l/hr output), immersion heater. We don't have the level of sophistication of your system. We do have two independent lithium batteries that provide us redundancy but we use a simple 3000w inverter/charger that has been onboard for 7 years. Its proved to be very reliable and runs everything. It had no BMS interface or control function. We turn it on, we turn it off.
We charge thr lithium by DC/DC chargers but over the next year i will convert to a 155A/24v alternator and Wakespeed regulator

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by JeffOnTheBoat

S/V Jedi, regarding this part your part 3 general 12V section. The relative complexity of your system brings up a lot of detail questions for me.

What are you using for the start battery, A general purpose battery or Starter battery? Is you Alternator regulator set for LA or LI charging? Is there any mechanism that could cause your Starter batter to discharge and not be able to start the engine?
Thanks for sharing all of this. Fascinating!
Jeff

Hi Jeff, I try to match my recommendations with the boat and it’s systems that is the subject and this more elaborate system was, imo, a match for kaz911 but may not be for other boats.

On to your questions: I use a battery that is marketed as dual purpose but it is a real start battery except that it is so powerful that it can do the other role as well. I have an Odyssey PC2150 TPPL AGM battery. TPPL stands for Thin Plate (i.e. start service) Pure Lead (i.e. high power output… 6,000Amp short circuit current).

The alternator regulator is set for charging the Odyssey AGM battery.

The only reason the start battery could lose charge is when the dc-dc converters are shut down, either turned off or when the lithium house bank runs out of power. If you feel there is a risk then you can build in a safety by programming the battery monitor of the lithium bank to trigger its build-in relay when state of charge goes low and use that to isolate the start battery from the general 12V busbar

As I have redundant dc-dc controllers and two large lithium batteries under constant observation, I am not worried at all.

But I see where your concern comes from: you have a dedicated start battery and now connect it to general 12V systems. You can still keep the dedicated start battery and simply add an extra battery using a battery isolator between alternator and both batteries (Victron ArgoFET) but it really isn’t needed because -all- 12V power will come from the lithium bank via the dc-dc converters as long as they can provide it.
Even when they can’t because of too much power required (start engine or 12V windlass etc. that use more than 60A) then the converters deliver 60A and the battery whatever extra is needed. Right after that, the battery is recharged by the dc-dc converters that maintain float voltage. And the next time the engine is started, the battery gets a bulk and absorption charge again.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Personally, unless you're doing auto generator start, I'd prefer a manual transfer switch (or a way to tell the Quattro to ignore the generator input at times). That allows starting the generator with no load and cutting the load off before shutdown. With auto start and the built in time delays in the newer Victron firmware, then there's no need for the manual switch to achieve that delay.

Via an app or the Cerbo you can set these units to ON, OFF, Charger Only (never invert) and Inverter Only (never use incoming power).

With a remote control panel (DRC) you don’t have the Inverter Only option.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Toccata

Just as a little addition to the discussion,
My boat is primarily 12V
It didn't have a bow thruster fitted.
I have fitted the largest Vetus thruster applicable to a 185mm tunnel. This unit is 24V, and has it's own built in 12v to 24V converter.
Dual AGM batteries at the thruster to make the 24v and I changed the Maxwell anchor winch motor to a 24v unit.
Same capacity and type AGM as my start battery and both banks linked.

Yes, that will work just fine.

Let me address a point that is often made but not relevant: many say you need a dc-dc charger because the long wiring means a voltage drop so that the forward batteries don’t charge correctly.

Well yes you get the voltage drop and thus the forward batteries are behind with charging, but they will get there eventually. As the charge current drops, the voltage drop is reduced drastically. So in reality, charging takes longer, but it will charge.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Via an app or the Cerbo you can set these units to ON, OFF, Charger Only (never invert) and Inverter Only (never use incoming power).

With a remote control panel (DRC) you don’t have the Inverter Only option.

Agreed, there are a few ways to do it. But I'd rather be able to just flip one switch (either a transfer switch or a switch going to an ignore AC in function) than need to poke through the menus on the Cerbo. Particularly because I like to leave things set (when the gen isn't running) such that if we go somewhere with shore power, it's just a matter of plug in, turn on the dock breaker and the boat will accept power.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Agreed, there are a few ways to do it. But I'd rather be able to just flip one switch (either a transfer switch or a switch going to an ignore AC in function) than need to poke through the menus on the Cerbo. Particularly because I like to leave things set (when the gen isn't running) such that if we go somewhere with shore power, it's just a matter of plug in, turn on the dock breaker and the boat will accept power.

Of course. Some people like physical switches, others prefer to tap a screen