Risk & Reward.. I was Wrong!

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by HereAndNow

Please note that I am not a big participant here on CF. And my knowledge and experience of sailing is so insignificant when compared to the wisdom on this forum. With that being said. Wow, what a great question to pose and to analyze.. And I have enjoyed reading the original post and the responses.. thank you. I have learned today..

I can tell you from a newbie-ish point of view my experience. This past May I sold everything and purchased a catamaran. I had the survey done, the repairs and upgrades made, the advice of as many people as I could find, and read countless forum posts and books and guides. My plan was to sail from Fort Lauderdale Florida to the British Virgin Islands via Island hopping. My initial departure date was mid to late October. I got off the dock on November 6th as prepared as I could be without waiting for another season! The sail certainly tested the crew and I, and I certainly encountered things that I was not prepared for, despite all of my preparation. The crew and I (and vessel) made it safely but for a few bumps and bruises (including egos).

With all that being said, the most difficult part of the journey was between purchasing the boat in May and getting off the dock in November. Not only was this the time of learning and prepping and fixing and upgrading, but it was also a time of fear and negativity from all of the naysayers. That fear and negativity was probably the hardest thing to overcome in my efforts to get under way. A less determined dreamer might have given up and never got off the dock. Maybe..

Not sure that I might have strayed a bit from the purpose of this thread, but wanted to share my experience. Thanks for reading..

Hi, HereAndNow,

"fear and negativity from all of the naysayers?"

When Jim and I were getting ready to leave on our first offshore passage, no one had much to say, except for one couple who questioned our taking a 20 lb. bag of onions.

Imo, people flat out don't understand why anyone would want to travel 4th class tearing up $100 bills, if you get what I mean. And many don't think you should take children with you.

So, in the light of your experience, do you think they were actively trying to discourage you? or, were they trying to point out potential pitfalls, and you labeled them naysayers? Currently, it is a popular label to place on those with whom one disagrees.

To make my position clear, would you think my asking you if you know whether or not you get seasick would be "naysaying?" or suggesting you be prepared to treat it aboard, even if you personally don't get seasick? I write a lot about seasickness, because I suffer from it, and I do think it is something newcomers should be prepared for.

Ann

[Discovery 3]

Pelagic don’t be so hard on yourself,comments,opinions and suggestions are not commandments from the Fuhrer that must be obeyed upon punishment by death.
The maritime world is the only,for want of a better word,industry where the skipper must have every skill in life to maintain a safe and functional vessel,must cover psychology,medical,every skill imaginable and then perform the art of navigation.
That newbies and some oldies get hung up about a delivery of a piece of advice then perhaps they shouldn’t ask for it,when your dipping your toe rail into the blue and need some sail let off before capsizing who cares how the order is given.Sailing is tough and not for the faint hearted.

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Hi, HereAndNow,

"fear and negativity from all of the naysayers?"
... And many don't think you should take children with you.

So, in the light of your experience, do you think they were actively trying to discourage you? or, were they trying to point out potential pitfalls, and you labeled them naysayers? Currently, it is a popular label to place on those with whom one disagrees.


Ann

Ann,
My experience seems to support the 'fear and negativity', heavy on negativity.
Since joining this forum, after many years of lurking in the shadows, I have received some truly helpful advice and information from some great members. But more often it seems I get negativity or outright insults. Maybe it is just perception, because it is hard not to take things personally.
When I asked if anyone could provide a proper 'name' for a headsail setup that was popular decades ago, even after a member recognized it and said a famous celebrity used to run that setup(but didn't know what it was called) I got replies that it was homemade junk and should be removed. Nice huh?
I supported a family of 4 on $24k a year for many years, but on here I'm told a couple has to have $3-5k monthly to even survive. Truth is there are many 'have's' that feel the 'have nots' don't deserve to follow the dream. Repeated fairly often is the 'advice' that we all must buy 5 or 12 different boats, working our way up from a bathtub squeaky, sailboard, dinghy sailor, day sailor, weekender, coastal cruiser, then maybe we can start looking at ads for a tiny offshore vessel then work up again... all because that's the way they did it. Can't afford that? You don't need to sail. I would say that is extremely negative, as well as unnecessary for many.
Many have the desire, but are financially restricted, and posting on this forum gets them slaughtered. Impossible we are told. I know it is very possible but try to stay out of those threads because that would just get me attacked as well.
In real life.
I find much more support and encouragement. Many question how we plan different aspects and some are genuinely afraid, but it comes across as their fear and also as respect for anyone who would choose this lifestyle.
My 2cents worth...

Michael

[RUSTYNAIL]

After retiring twice from the USCG, first in the military side, then another 19 years as a civilian, I have a lot of opinions on safety. Being absolutely safe is impossible. Being prepared for whatever the weather gods can send you, is reachable. I love the ocean, and it makes me feel good. I'm probably more prepared than most, and less than some. Zingaro did an incredible job of getting back to a safe port. I learned a lot from that summary, and can't wait to get the full story. I want to pull my hair out when I see any vessel leave the dock without an EPIRB, and that's my minimum requirement for offshore boats. I wish more, new-to-the-ocean, knew how their chances of survival increase if they have an EPIRB. They make up for a lot of ignorance while you are getting experience.

[gamayun]

Rustynail, every time I see post-rescue story from CG, it says something like "if they'd had an EPIRB, the outcome would have been so much better. " We need to just repeat this to newbies, "don't go until you can afford to buy an EPIRB."

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

Ann,
My experience seems to support the 'fear and negativity', heavy on negativity.
Since joining this forum, after many years of lurking in the shadows, I have received some truly helpful advice and information from some great members. But more often it seems I get negativity or outright insults. Maybe it is just perception, because it is hard not to take things personally.
When I asked if anyone could provide a proper 'name' for a headsail setup that was popular decades ago, even after a member recognized it and said a famous celebrity used to run that setup(but didn't know what it was called) I got replies that it was homemade junk and should be removed. Nice huh?
I supported a family of 4 on $24k a year for many years, but on here I'm told a couple has to have $3-5k monthly to even survive. Truth is there are many 'have's' that feel the 'have nots' don't deserve to follow the dream. Repeated fairly often is the 'advice' that we all must buy 5 or 12 different boats, working our way up from a bathtub squeaky, sailboard, dinghy sailor, day sailor, weekender, coastal cruiser, then maybe we can start looking at ads for a tiny offshore vessel then work up again... all because that's the way they did it. Can't afford that? You don't need to sail. I would say that is extremely negative, as well as unnecessary for many.
Many have the desire, but are financially restricted, and posting on this forum gets them slaughtered. Impossible we are told. I know it is very possible but try to stay out of those threads because that would just get me attacked as well.
In real life.
I find much more support and encouragement. Many question how we plan different aspects and some are genuinely afraid, but it comes across as their fear and also as respect for anyone who would choose this lifestyle.
My 2cents worth...

Michael

Michael, your characterization of the advice you've received here seems a tad harsh to me. I hope I haven't been one of those whom you refer to, because I do recommend starting with a small, fast, fun boat because that IS the way I started and in retrospect I often see how those experiences help me to this day. But I am fine with folks who start big, if they can make a good go of it! My cruising now consists of only going back and forth to the local islands with my family, in a 60 year old boat that needs a lot of cosmetic attention. I am one of those doing it on a shoestring. I am sure there are more than a few folks who look at me heading out and wonder how far I am planning to go! I know of a guy who I see out at the islands often who has a big beautiful, much younger, boat that is always immaculate. For him that boat, with all that it has, is the minimum he can be happy with, and feel safe with, and though he is polite to me to my face, I wouldn't be surprised if he had a few words of criticism for me if he were writing them on a forum! But I know my boat is all there structurally and I have confidence in her for all I put her through. I am certainly aware that boats can cruise very far without being new, big or have all the bells and whistles. That being said, some members here may not seem very diplomatic in their advice or assessments but, as long as they are following the rules, they may, and often do, have many pearls of wisdom hidden in what may seem to be attacks. Many folks may not have the best bedside manner, but I'd recommend to try to hear what they have to say, if they have experience. I suspect you'll find that those with the most experience, and best advice, are those who are more respectful to you anyway. Also, it can be hard to discern on an internet forum the tone of voice or intent in what is written and it can be easy to misinterpret posts sometimes.
In any case I'd say to you and all others who have felt discouraged here, hang in there and keep separating the wheat from the chaff!

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

Repeated fairly often is the 'advice' that we all must buy 5 or 12 different boats, working our way up from a bathtub squeaky, sailboard, dinghy sailor, day sailor, weekender, coastal cruiser, then maybe we can start looking at ads for a tiny offshore vessel then work up again... all because that's the way they did it. Can't afford that? You don't need to sail. I would say that is extremely negative, as well as unnecessary for many.

This made me laugh and nod in agreement. So, so, so spot on. Perspective is everything!

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

...I supported a family of 4 on $24k a year for many years, but on here I'm told a couple has to have $3-5k monthly to even survive.

Hi Michael, this is one of the ways I sometimes get drawn into dreamer and early planner threads. When I see others post patently false information, like you must have $3+K/month, then I sometimes try and counter with my own experience.

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

...Repeated fairly often is the 'advice' that we all must buy 5 or 12 different boats, working our way up from a bathtub squeaky, sailboard, dinghy sailor, day sailor, weekender, coastal cruiser, then maybe we can start looking at ads for a tiny offshore vessel then work up again... all because that's the way they did it. Can't afford that? You don't need to sail. I would say that is extremely negative, as well as unnecessary for many.

I can't recall ever seeing advice suggesting people must work through "5 or 12 different boats," but many (including me) will suggest there is no substitute for actual experience. I usually suggest new cruisers start with a modest, inexpensive (older) cruising level boat, and then go out and actually cruise for a while. From there I expect people to learn what they want in THE boat. So that's two boats (and that's what worked for me).

There were some really good threads here in the past focusing on the frugal cruiser. I'd love to see them given more life. While this forum is dominated by wealthy folks, there are enough of us plebes around to make these discussions interesting.

[S/V Adeline]

Don, Mike,

I fully agree there is no substitute for experience. I hope my post did not suggest otherwise. Myself, like many others, don't have that lifelong experience (I for one envy those who do)
I only have the funds to shoestring along and don't have the years ahead so it's either fast track or wait to die wishing I had at least tried. Since death is the end regardless might as well fight for the dream till the bitter end.
If I had listened to the naysayers, I would have never found a great '79 Princess 36, structurally sound, almost ready to cruise (boat + new engine + new transmission < $8k) just CAN'T find a decent boat on my budget....really?
She needs about a couple grand of improvements and we are gone. We have a steep learning curve ahead, she is 9ft longer than our previous sailboat (not including her bowsprit) and she will be the first sailing vessel we take 'offshore'.
We DO have an EPIRB,...and a fishing rod

Michael

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by billdomb

All's fine until you put OTHERS at risk without their fully informed consent.

And also those who are tasked to come rescue you...

I don't really buy that mindset

Adult INDIVIDUALS are responsible for their own decisions and unless you are selling tickets, they have accepted to share the Risk

Kids are a grey area but that opens up a whole can of parenting worms if we tried to legislate cruising with kids

Search and Rescue signed up to save lives and knew what they were getting into. We honor them, we pay them and we thank them.....that's the deal same as military.

[Ken Fry]

Originally Posted by Group9

Just think how bad it would be if the percentage of incompetent boat operators, ever got close to the percentage of incompetent vehicle operators!

I gather you have not sailed on Lake Lanier, Georgia. There, the percentage of incompetent boat operators (roughly 67 percent) many of whom are intoxicated (32 percent, typically, but higher when the weather is warm) makes for far worse conditions than usually seen on the highways.

OK, I'm exaggerating. A little.

[Ken Fry]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I was wrong then and other times to lecture about the past and should have instead helped them to move forward.

What say others?

First, I say thanks! This is an important discussion to have, and I have been impressed by seeing so many thoughtful responses.

There is a lot to be learned from people, like you, who have considerable experience. Perhaps your tone (back then) was a little off from where you might have wanted it to be, but people are resilient and most are able to take in criticism that is presented with less-than-wonderful skillfulness. I am new here, and don't "know" you, but I feel certain that I would benefit from your advice, no matter how it is presented. Perhaps, if you come across as being genuinely abusive, I might just ignore your suggestions, but if you say something that bruises my ego a little, I can easily bounce back, and your good advice, delivered skillfully or not, is still good advice, and of value to all readers of the forum, not just me, or any other person at whom it is aimed directly. Perhaps the thing you might say to me that was hard to hear saves 10 others from making serious mistakes.

I think good advice stands on its own, no matter how tactful or tactless the delivery. Of course... go for tact. But don't let tact stand in the way of letting others (e.g all the forum members) know how to do the things that, if done incorrectly, can put their lives at risk.

I have had one or two bits of tersely-delivered advice from a flight instructor that felt a little too stern at the time (still remembered 30 years later), but those exchanges were very well-intentioned and certainly made me a better pilot. I imagine that your advice in the past probably made the target of your advice a safer cruiser.

Last night, I had a dream that arose, I am certain, from the Zingaro situation. In the dream, I offered uninvited advice to a motorcycle driver who was putting his passenger at risk. It was not clear that the "consent" was fully informed, particularly because the passenger was below the age of consent... but in addition the passenger was not likely capable of judging the things that can be safely done on a motorcycle and the things that cannot... and, in the dream, also not likely to have been "fully informed" in a way that was understandable.

The person on the back could have been (a slightly younger version of) my daughter, but the person in the dream was apparently someone I did not know. The driver of the bike had traveled from one stop light to the next, accelerating on the rear wheel alone (a "wheelie") for most of the distance, and then abruptly decelerating on the front wheel alone (doing a "stoppie" with only the front wheel on the ground). (My witnessing this maneuver on a city street in real life a few years ago was why it showed up in the dream, no doubt.) In the dream, I gave the driver a stern lecture, and certainly suggested that he was being incredibly irresponsible... and in a move that I would be unlikely to do in real life, suggested that if he thought he was wonderfully competent in doing this dangerous maneuver on public streets, then perhaps we should compare lap times at Nelson Ledges or Summit Point (race tracks where I raced many years ago in real life). (Clearly I had judged him to be a clueless novice -- because only clueless novices do such things with a passenger, and only those locked into teenage mentality do such things alone on public streets.)

While there is a pompous ass quality to the comparison of racing cred (OK flashy boy moron, show me your lap times!") there is also the benefit of strongly stating that such behavior, namely putting others at risk (including the car drivers who have to veer this way or that to avoid the inevitable crash that is just waiting to happen) is not remotely close to OK.

(Had I had the opportunity some years ago when I saw little boy wonder performing this trick with the young scantily clad girl on the back [i.e. sans the leathers we wear on race tracks] I would have felt some value in, at least, educating the girl so that her "consent" was genuinely informed.)

(If I were advising my daughter: "Sure it's OK to ride on the back with a sycopath driving, but only once you really understand the dynamics. To demonstrate an understanding of the dynamics, win about half your grand prix races for a couple years, and witness the death of a few road racers in the comparatively safe environment of a track. After that, if you think doing riskier yet stuff on the street is great fun, then so be it... just pay for your own health insurance.)

A catamaran breaking apart in what can be considered a pretty ordinary day around Hawaii (30 knot winds, 20 foot seas) is extraordinary. A competently sailed, properly maintained Hobie 16 would not fall apart in those conditions. A Norsea 27 is just starting to come alive in those conditions (while the occupants are puking). We can take the position that "Oh, things like that happen... it's a normal risk of cruising." That would mislead and scare away many prudent folks. Or we can say "This should not happen, and a prudent sailor will do these things to help ensure that cruising is fun and safe: ... "

This is not the thread to discuss all the things that could have been done differently with Zingaro, but I think this is the thread in which we can highlight the value of being clear when communicating about the responsibilities that go along with boat ownership and piloting -- even when the message might be hard to hear for the skipper and crew. I don't think we are running the risk of coming across as a bunch of cranky old farts scaring away the kids... and there is some hard-won wisdom among you all that needs to be communicated, passionately if need be,

[JPA Cate]

Ah, yes, but the more hard won, the more difficult not to sound grumpy. Dang!

Ann

[Bromo]

Thanks for the thread and with all due RESPECT (not yelling, just emphasis) to Pelagic and every poster:

If you think you're wrong to give good advice about bad situations; I most humbly submit, you consider you are wrong about being wrong.

If the cited studies about giving advice being associated with power is correct, then aren't the authors seeking power over their readers by giving us their "scientific" advice?

Of course there's are bad, good, better and best ways to speak to and into others. And there's always room for improvement in balancing concerns with kindness.

But this societal move into the abyss of fear of offending with microagressions etc. is redic... Wait a min...seems more about; "Advice Giving: A Subtle Pathway to POWER," Michael Schaerer, et al

[tarian]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Ah, yes, but the more hard won, the more difficult not to sound grumpy. Dang!

Ann

This is the best saying on here , I am afraid that there are many older cruisers that believe that they do know everything , and that having sea miles under your belt gives you the experience, nonsense in my book, sailing the sunny weather and predictable winds of the world does not make you the best or better sailor , having experienced many types of water , in different seasons gives a steeper learning curve .

I have seen first hand too many older people telling how it is in many occupations and cringing and sometimes removing them in my Job capacity , as , that old saying stuck in your ways comes to fruition.

I will say it again and keep saying it , older , younger , middle aged it does not matter , what matters is the skill set the attitude and the heart to overcome, advice from all is welcome but lecturing to some one starting out and giving them the doomsaday scenarios is not welcome , helpfully or friendly.

We all start form birth and learn to walk and speak at different rates no different to any skill as we grow, just because it may have taken someone 20 years to feel comfortable about crossing oceans , does not mean those with a dream can not do it in 1 year , with the right commitments to learning and training and listening to sage advice.

I have been a personnel trainer and training manager for a multi million pound organisation and ran staff over 200 strong, I was very good at my job won awards , but very importantly I never stopped learning and gaining information this makes you progress in any field and never stop listening , this I believe happens to certain people who believe its there way or no way and this makes then have the inability ro see their errors and admit their wrong.