Risk & Reward.. I was Wrong!

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Should we judge by our standards or just leave it to the rights of self determination and be supportive?

Either way it is human nature to have an opinion and people are free to do what they want though Laura Dekker is one example of how a court of law was used to decide if she could push the expected boundaries of risk versus age. Even "suicide baiting" is not yet well established in the courts. So whether someone posts their intentions on CF and we bite back has little relevance in the long run in their choices. In the end, we have to live with our consciences as to whether we think our opinions had any effect on the ultimate outcome, especially if it turns out badly.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Getting back to the Risk & Reward aspect of individuals challenging themselves?

When should we intervene and strongly discourage the attempt?

Is age a factor (both extremes)?

When successful, they can be seen as inspirational.

If they fail, can expect to be heavily criticised and even seen as a Darwin Awards Candidate.

What if a young nautical prodigy (say Leny from Vagabond) at the young age of 7, wanted to solo non stop around the world and his parents felt he was ready.

Should we judge by our standards or just leave it to the rights of self determination and be supportive?

Once again, this is a fairly easy and extreme situation. Unless the kid has exceptional skills and experience, has significant resources and support, and is acting from his own desire and not being coerced in some way, then it's reasonable to question his actions.

The far more challenging situation is the more common one we see here all the time: someone shows up here with no experience, few relevant skills and "a dream to sail RTW." Do you help, hinder, or say nothing?

My response is generally to say nothing. I don't feel it is my duty or role to encourage or discourage. Unless I have direct and useful knowledge about the situation, I really have nothing useful to say. So most of the time I simply pass by those threads.

[denverd0n]

I will repeat a comment that I have made in the past...


People who are really ready, don't need the validation of a bunch of strangers on an internet forum to know it. They don't need us to give them permission to go, and they aren't going to be swayed by someone who tells them they are not ready.


Hence, if someone asks "Am I ready? Should I go?" the best answer is probably "no." If they are truly ready that will not deter them. If that is enough to deter them, they almost certainly were not ready to go anyway. Indeed, the fact that they feel the need to even ask is pretty good evidence that they are NOT ready.

[boatman61]

I find the best way to help the I have a Dreamers is to tell them to go for it..
All thats needed is a cheap 30ft boat with sound hull, rig and engine.. a handheld gps, some paper charts, working depth sounder and they're good to go..
This usually prompts a vociferous flood of bigger, better, newer, stronger, bells and whistles response which scares the crap outa them and they buy an RV never to be heard from again..

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Hence, if someone asks "Am I ready? Should I go?" the best answer is probably "no." If they are truly ready that will not deter them. If that is enough to deter them, they almost certainly were not ready to go anyway. Indeed, the fact that they feel the need to even ask is pretty good evidence that they are NOT ready.

That made me smile[emoji4]

My experience has been that it is the management office that asks the question; "Am I ready?"

Especially when coming out of a drydock period with a tight positioning schedule to another part of the world.

My stock answer was always:
"You are never ready, but I'm going anyway!"

I thought, why should I be the only one to worry? [emoji57]

[moseriw]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

My experience has been that it is the management office that asks the question; "Am I ready?"

Especially when coming out of a drydock period with a tight positioning schedule to another part of the world.

My stock answer was always:
"You are never ready, but I'm going anyway!"

I thought, why should I be the only one to worry? [emoji57]

You mix technics and mental readyness.


We all know that a boat is never ready to go - there is always something to worry about but as long as the essentials are met....



Mentally - there is always something to worry about and to be prepared about.


And it is obvious that s lot of guys out there do not care about it and just go in for trouble.

[HereAndNow]

Please note that I am not a big participant here on CF. And my knowledge and experience of sailing is so insignificant when compared to the wisdom on this forum. With that being said. Wow, what a great question to pose and to analyze.. And I have enjoyed reading the original post and the responses.. thank you. I have learned today..

I can tell you from a newbie-ish point of view my experience. This past May I sold everything and purchased a catamaran. I had the survey done, the repairs and upgrades made, the advice of as many people as I could find, and read countless forum posts and books and guides. My plan was to sail from Fort Lauderdale Florida to the British Virgin Islands via Island hopping. My initial departure date was mid to late October. I got off the dock on November 6th as prepared as I could be without waiting for another season! The sail certainly tested the crew and I, and I certainly encountered things that I was not prepared for, despite all of my preparation. The crew and I (and vessel) made it safely but for a few bumps and bruises (including egos).

With all that being said, the most difficult part of the journey was between purchasing the boat in May and getting off the dock in November. Not only was this the time of learning and prepping and fixing and upgrading, but it was also a time of fear and negativity from all of the naysayers. That fear and negativity was probably the hardest thing to overcome in my efforts to get under way. A less determined dreamer might have given up and never got off the dock. Maybe..

Not sure that I might have strayed a bit from the purpose of this thread, but wanted to share my experience. Thanks for reading..

Originally Posted by Pelagic

The start of a New Year is always a time for introspection.... perhaps even more so if it's the start of a New Decade ?

The Zingaro event made me think years back to my first time on CF, when I commented on an at sea failure and the poor choices the skipper made.

Ironically it was also a voyage towards Hawaii by a newbie sailor who had a steering failure and was overcome by seasickness.
If I remember correctly, he eventually needed to be rescued.

CF members who knew him from his departure dock said that he was really unprepared, no experience, unsuitable, poorly maintained boat and they had warned him about taking this offshore journey, without gaining experience first.

Others supported his "Go for it" attitude which I criticised because the onboard steering problem was easily solvable, if he had done his homework, before departure.

My mariner's carreer experience and professional training took over.
Now I realize I was wrong!

Risk and Reward whether it be a financial risk, (Budget be Dammed) career or lifestyle risk , or sailing off on a minimal budget with little experience (unlike Zingaro) is really up to the individual

On a boat, it is their Risk and their Reward, and when something bad happens, should we not just say....ok, and advise the crew of what they might do next?

I was wrong then and other times to lecture about the past and should have instead helped them to move forward.

What say others?

[jorapazu]

Any advise given in good faith is welcome, the sea lets you do whatever it wants and you need to be prepared for it, No matter what, it will always challenge you.

[tekdiver]

Back round on me: I'm a paid professional Educator. I have Taught , Scuba from entry through all professional levels. I have taught First Aid and CPR and AED use From entry to instructor levels. I,ve taught Rescue from entry to professional teams.

Each person has to decide what is safe for them.
Critiques after an accident help us all to learn and beware.


We had what we called Dive store rules.
1.) The stupid shall be punished.
2.) The lesson will be repeated till the lesson is learned.
3.) Training will always help those who prepare for the worst.
4.) You are the one who decides if you are ready and the Sea will Give you your grade.
That applies above water as well as below water.
I always started every debrief with positive comments some were hard to find based on the screw up.

If you give advise for free people will take it for what its worth.
If you charge for your knowledge you end up being responsible.
You were correct from your point of view.

James and Kimmi are friends of mine and I have followed Zingaro from its start. James has a 100 ton CG lis. Some times more courage than he should have but his risk has given him great rewards. When he is my age he will look back and go wow that was awesome whereas Others will look back with regret.
Thanks for all input here your a great group of helpful Skippers and Skipperetts.

[tekdiver]

Back round on me: I'm a paid professional Educator. I have Taught , Scuba from entry through all professional levels. I have taught First Aid and CPR and AED use From entry to instructor levels. I,ve taught Rescue from entry to professional teams.

Each person has to decide what is safe for them.
Critiques after an accident help us all to learn and beware.


We had what we called Dive store rules.
1.) The stupid shall be punished.
2.) The lesson will be repeated till the lesson is learned.
3.) Training will always help those who prepare for the worst.
4.) You are the one who decides if you are ready and the Sea will Give you your grade.
That applies above water as well as below water.
I always started every debrief with positive comments some were hard to find based on the screw up.

If you give advise for free people will take it for what its worth.
If you charge for your knowledge you end up being responsible.
You were correct from your point of view.

James and Kimmi are friends of mine and I have followed Zingaro from its start. James has a 100 ton CG lis. Some times more courage than he should have but his risk has given him great rewards. When he is my age he will look back and go wow that was awesome whereas Others will look back with regret.
Thanks for all input here your a great group of helpful Skippers and Skipperetts.

[CyKlop]

In many ways I agree with Pelagic in that there is always a risk assessment (even by an ignorant person, they have assessed risks). It is up to them to decide if the risks are within acceptable margins, regardless of the opinions of others.

Columbus decided to sail far westward when everyone (well... many people) told him that it was sure suicide. Many, many, people have died climbing Mt Everest before Tenzig Norkay and Sir Edmund Hillary clibned it successfully. etc, etc, etc. it is not for us to say to a person that it is outside the bounds of acceptable risk.

What it IS incumbent upon us to do is to do our best to make sure they have as complete a risk assessment as possible as well as help them minimize that risk to the extent possible.

As an example, "If you go, you're likely to kill yourself" is probably not helpful. "Hey, that sounds like a wonderful dream! Have you considered...." is likely to be more helpful. Of course, there are people who are simply too sure of themself to take advice no matter how well intentioned, and there are people who give advice no matter how unwelcome (or even wrong!) it is. I've been all the above people in my life so far, I'm embarassed to admit.

[billdomb]

All's fine until you put OTHERS at risk without their fully informed consent.

And also those who are tasked to come rescue you...

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by HereAndNow

With all that being said, the most difficult part of the journey was between purchasing the boat in May and getting off the dock in November. Not only was this the time of learning and prepping and fixing and upgrading, but it was also a time of fear and negativity from all of the naysayers. That fear and negativity was probably the hardest thing to overcome in my efforts to get under way. A less determined dreamer might have given up and never got off the dock. Maybe..
reading..

Nice post Here&Now .

The first trip is always the hardest in terms of confidence.

Hopefully you will always retain a small reserve of pessimism, to keep you sharp .

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by billdomb

All's fine until you put OTHERS at risk without their fully informed consent.

And also those who are tasked to come rescue you...

This.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by HereAndNow

Please note that I am not a big participant here on CF. And my knowledge and experience of sailing is so insignificant when compared to the wisdom on this forum. With that being said. Wow, what a great question to pose and to analyze.. And I have enjoyed reading the original post and the responses.. thank you. I have learned today..

I can tell you from a newbie-ish point of view my experience. This past May I sold everything and purchased a catamaran. I had the survey done, the repairs and upgrades made, the advice of as many people as I could find, and read countless forum posts and books and guides. My plan was to sail from Fort Lauderdale Florida to the British Virgin Islands via Island hopping. My initial departure date was mid to late October. I got off the dock on November 6th as prepared as I could be without waiting for another season! The sail certainly tested the crew and I, and I certainly encountered things that I was not prepared for, despite all of my preparation. The crew and I (and vessel) made it safely but for a few bumps and bruises (including egos).

With all that being said, the most difficult part of the journey was between purchasing the boat in May and getting off the dock in November. Not only was this the time of learning and prepping and fixing and upgrading, but it was also a time of fear and negativity from all of the naysayers. That fear and negativity was probably the hardest thing to overcome in my efforts to get under way. A less determined dreamer might have given up and never got off the dock. Maybe..

Not sure that I might have strayed a bit from the purpose of this thread, but wanted to share my experience. Thanks for reading..

Hi, HereAndNow,

"fear and negativity from all of the naysayers?"

When Jim and I were getting ready to leave on our first offshore passage, no one had much to say, except for one couple who questioned our taking a 20 lb. bag of onions.

Imo, people flat out don't understand why anyone would want to travel 4th class tearing up $100 bills, if you get what I mean. And many don't think you should take children with you.

So, in the light of your experience, do you think they were actively trying to discourage you? or, were they trying to point out potential pitfalls, and you labeled them naysayers? Currently, it is a popular label to place on those with whom one disagrees.

To make my position clear, would you think my asking you if you know whether or not you get seasick would be "naysaying?" or suggesting you be prepared to treat it aboard, even if you personally don't get seasick? I write a lot about seasickness, because I suffer from it, and I do think it is something newcomers should be prepared for.

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

Ann