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Old 06-07-2008, 03:34   #16
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Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
The original speeds given where taken from a sat tracker each 12 hours and although it gives a correct location of the vessel it by no means gives the speed.
If I recall well ( and my memory is Good ) we had to tack all the way from Barbados to Miami with the wind on the nose and the actual covered distance was double that of the direct routing . Also the stops made in St Helena , Barbados , and Tortola where not taken into account when the post was made as you can clearly see .
The total distance covered was acually almost 1800 more than the direct course as give by the sattelite tracker. after having calculated the correct distances traveled by log we recalculated the total average speed to 8.81
We did not ever have 2 knots following current , the best we have seen was 1 knot and that was for 6 days only , in front of brazil we had a counter current of 1 knot and the same the whole trip from Barbados to Miami

Greetings


Can we agree that these numbers give a "VMG" for each period?

Gludys wanted a VMG of 10 knots, so this is what we have discussed. When looking at speeds for the ARC, we also compare the actual VMG and not boat speed through the water.


Gideon, the current comment was for the Durban to Capetown leg, and on the 4 times I have done this trip, we could typically catch an average of 2 knots or sometimes more than 3. Today they use satellite info to catch this current and save fuel on the merchant vessels.

This leg is NOT included in the average calculated above.


Regards

Alan
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Old 06-07-2008, 04:27   #17
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What is the average windforce? Atlantic in november is not a stormplace.
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Old 06-07-2008, 13:27   #18
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Gludy has 8 requirements, not just speed, no matter that he is asking a bit much there.
It may also be a bit much to ask for a washing machine and a dishwasher on a cat that can be handled by a couple, but its still a legitimate question. Range under power is usually reported, but should be taken with a grain of salt. Being able to dry out in a retreating tide is a reasonable expectation, and will almast always be answered with little equivocation, so the remaining questions, concerning ease of maintenance and handling in difficult berthing situations needs to be addressed.
What does it take to make a cat easy to handle in tight quarters?
Do fixed shoal draft keels help or hurt in tight quarters?
Can a catamaran with counter-rotating propellers be prop-walked sideways like a powerboat?
Would there be any advantage in bowthrusters?
Which marques have the most windage?
Finally, which manufacturer pays the most attention to servicing and repairs?
Who has the most accessible steerage, wiring and plumbing chases?
Which marque leaves enough space to work all the way around the engine, without having to hang from your knees?
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Old 06-07-2008, 13:42   #19
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Size of boat

"Gludy has 8 requirements, not just speed, no matter that he is asking a bit much there."
If I am asking a bit much I need to find out.
It seems boats like the Leopard 46 manage 200 miles a day on a delivery trip from Cape Town to the USA - so a lighter cat like the FastCat must travel faster?
I am still baffled on this point because it seems that production boats of the size I am talking about manage a VMG of say 7 to 8 knots on most trips - so why should not a cat that is almost half their weight not manage it faster.

"It may also be a bit much to ask for a washing machine and a dishwasher on a cat that can be handled by a couple,"

The new Broadblue 50, The new Discovery 50 etc are boats designed to be handled by two people and are 50 foot long - both have all those luxuries and more.

As regard prop walk - you can dtop one engine and prop walk on the other. With counter rotating props you can prop walk in either direction however its seems much easier just to swivel on both engines.
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Old 06-07-2008, 15:07   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
Can we agree that these numbers give a "VMG" for each period?

Gludys wanted a VMG of 10 knots, so this is what we have discussed. When looking at speeds for the ARC, we also compare the actual VMG and not boat speed through the water.


Gideon, the current comment was for the Durban to Capetown leg, and on the 4 times I have done this trip, we could typically catch an average of 2 knots or sometimes more than 3. Today they use satellite info to catch this current and save fuel on the merchant vessels.

This leg is NOT included in the average calculated above.


Regards

Alan

Hallo Alan

the trip from Durban to Cape town took us 3 and a half days for a direct distance over the shortest possible line of 880 NM and sailed distance of 983 on the log
If I calculate that and we have averaged 1 knot current over the complete trip and substract these 84 nm of current we have covered 899 nm in 84 hours makes an average of 10.7 knots and we have had short periods with very little wind and from cape Agulhas with had the wind on the nose.
We have used no motor until we had the harbor of cape town in sight .
Speeds of boats are not measured VMG but actual distance covered divided by the bhours it took to cover this distance.

Greetings

Gideon
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Old 06-07-2008, 15:34   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy daugherty View Post
Gludy has 8 requirements, not just speed, no matter that he is asking a bit much there.
Quote:
It may also be a bit much to ask for a washing machine and a dishwasher on a cat that can be handled by a couple, but its still a legitimate question.

Shouldn't be a problem on a 50 footer. I will have a washer/dryer on mine. Dishwasher in the galley is easy.
Quote:
Range under power is usually reported, but should be taken with a grain of salt.

Tankage for 800 liters of diesel in the hulls would be easy, this would give 1500 miles on 1 engine.

Quote:
Being able to dry out in a retreating tide is a reasonable expectation, and will almast always be answered with little equivocation, so the remaining questions, concerning ease of maintenance and handling in difficult berthing situations needs to be addressed.
What does it take to make a cat easy to handle in tight quarters?
Do fixed shoal draft keels help or hurt in tight quarters?
Anything down there helps when you have wind from the side, generally I try to keep my speed up to keep from drifting too much.

Quote:
Can a catamaran with counter-rotating propellers be prop-walked sideways like a powerboat?


Never tried it, but twin engines and rudders will get you in anywhere.

Quote:
Would there be any advantage in bowthrusters?
Not in my opinion, unless you have ones that are pushed out of the bottom of the hull. Firstly, most cats haven't got enough draught up forward to have fully immersed thrusters. Second, the thrust would need to be only outwards for best efficiency so 2 are needed, as inward thrust will get absorbed by the other hull to some extent.
It is doable though.

Quote:
Which marques have the most windage?


The ones with flybridges, high freeboard with no curve to the deck, lots of rigging etc. Some of the Lagoons must be terrible on windage.
Quote:

Finally, which manufacturer pays the most attention to servicing and repairs?
Who has the most accessible steerage, wiring and plumbing chases?
Which marque leaves enough space to work all the way around the engine, without having to hang from your knees?
I have designed the engine room hatches to be large enough for you to stand up in, and to be able to remove the complete engine in one piece.
All plumbing chases are under the cabin soles for easy acess. Toilets are raised to ensure easy acess to plumbing and through hulls.

All wiring is done using a bus based system, with a main segment going the length of each hull. "Intelligent" switches can be added where necessary, so only short take-offs to where you need the power. Saves alot of weight as well.

Batteries are in cupboards in the saloon on small wheeled trolleys, so you can pull them out for maintenance.

It is possible to get a boat that will tick all of Gludys boxes expect maybe the VMG requirement in a 50 footer.

Regards

Alan
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Old 06-07-2008, 15:54   #22
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So which one?

"t is possible to get a boat that will tick all of Gludys boxes expect maybe the VMG requirement in a 50 footer."

So which one would you go for that would tick the boxes and maybe offer 8 knots VMG?
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Old 06-07-2008, 22:36   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
I have designed the engine room hatches to be large enough for you to stand up in, and to be able to remove the complete engine in one piece.
All plumbing chases are under the cabin soles for easy acess. Toilets are raised to ensure easy acess to plumbing and through hulls.

All wiring is done using a bus based system, with a main segment going the length of each hull. "Intelligent" switches can be added where necessary, so only short take-offs to where you need the power. Saves alot of weight as well.

Batteries are in cupboards in the saloon on small wheeled trolleys, so you can pull them out for maintenance.

It is possible to get a boat that will tick all of Gludys boxes expect maybe the VMG requirement in a 50 footer.

Regards

Alan

Just Curious Alan

If and when you start building your cat are you just building for yourself or will you build for others as well ( as a commercial Vender ), if that is the case make it known so people can order from you and let us know the price direction.

Greetings
Gideon
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Old 07-07-2008, 05:10   #24
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Hi Gideon,

I am designing and building for myself, and until the boat is finsished and I'm satisfied, I will not make any decisions on whether to start a production or not. I want to go sailing not manage a new company, I just sold my company a short while ago, and am enjoying running it for the new owners until the new management team is fully comfortable.

There are alot of innovative and "different" features on this boat, and these have to be proven in use, and the quality has to be top notch. I have a french built boat, had an english one, so I know what I want and don't want. Sailing has to be fun, and for me, that means minimum maintenance hassle, easy acess to all parts.

I have already had several requests, but If I decide to go into this business, the boat will be for the upper segment of the market, no cutting corners to save a few dollars.

Let's see how much hassle it is to manage the build, and how much fun or not.....


regards

Alan
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Old 07-07-2008, 05:23   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gludy View Post
"t is possible to get a boat that will tick all of Gludys boxes expect maybe the VMG requirement in a 50 footer."

So which one would you go for that would tick the boxes and maybe offer 8 knots VMG?

I would go with a Chris White Atlantic 55/57, or maybe the new Lidgard 50 which looks promising.

But these are not standard production boats. The production boats on offer are either too heavy, or lack space IMO. But I haven't been on a big Outremer.

I know this isn't much help for you, so go and sail the boats, try and handle them in close quarters and make your choice.
If you do order a new boat, make sure to specify larger winches, better blocks and tracks, better sails and ropes as these are typically areas where builders cut corners to save money. Go for a rig that will let you have the boom out at more than 45 degrees, and make sure there is a way to vang the boom when it is outboard. Specify single line reefing for at least 2 reefs and electric winches.

Regards

Alan
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Old 07-07-2008, 05:35   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
I would go with a Chris White Atlantic 55/57, or maybe the new Lidgard 50 which looks promising.

But these are not standard production boats. The production boats on offer are either too heavy, or lack space IMO. But I haven't been on a big Outremer.

I know this isn't much help for you, so go and sail the boats, try and handle them in close quarters and make your choice.
If you do order a new boat, make sure to specify larger winches, better blocks and tracks, better sails and ropes as these are typically areas where builders cut corners to save money. Go for a rig that will let you have the boom out at more than 45 degrees, and make sure there is a way to vang the boom when it is outboard. Specify single line reefing for at least 2 reefs and electric winches.

Regards

Alan
A Atlantic is a nice boat but hardly the boat for a couple that starts sailing now and want a single handed sailor more likely 3 or 4 people are needed to sail these sailing machines well
or a very experienced couple .

Regards
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Old 07-07-2008, 05:40   #27
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Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
Hi Gideon,

I am designing and building for myself, and until the boat is finsished and I'm satisfied, I will not make any decisions on whether to start a production or not. I want to go sailing not manage a new company, I just sold my company a short while ago, and am enjoying running it for the new owners until the new management team is fully comfortable.

There are alot of innovative and "different" features on this boat, and these have to be proven in use, and the quality has to be top notch. I have a french built boat, had an english one, so I know what I want and don't want. Sailing has to be fun, and for me, that means minimum maintenance hassle, easy acess to all parts.

I have already had several requests, but If I decide to go into this business, the boat will be for the upper segment of the market, no cutting corners to save a few dollars.

Let's see how much hassle it is to manage the build, and how much fun or not.....


regards

Alan
One can never cut corners when building a yacht let alone an ocean crossing yacht , maintenance stores are never around the corner so all lines , winches etc should always be over spec. For that reason we use only Dyneema control lines big winches , a 54 st for the 40 M2 Genoa
and 44 st for the main and this works perfect.
All Deck hardware is made by Harken and so is the Standard Bat Carr system.
One cannot go high enough in quality
If you have any questions at all regarding your equipment to use let me know.

We by now know what to use and what not to use

Greetings
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Old 08-07-2008, 22:36   #28
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Gludy, I'm with Nordic Cat on this. More stuff on board = less speed. Your speed goals would require a really large boat, a full crew willing to work hard 24/7, a boat with little stuff on board, good winds, and some risk. In catamarans, speed = long waterline, small hull beam at the waterline, light weight, and a large sail area. A large sail area = risk of turning over if you use it when there is much wind, which you need to do to attain your goal. You want what one naval architect, W. Crealock, called a 'live-aboard sports car.' Ain't no such animal. If you buy a boat because somebody claims you'll meet all your goals with it, including an average speed of 240 NM a day, you will end up counting your lumps while the seller whistles on the way to the bank with your money.
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Old 09-07-2008, 01:49   #29
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Thanks for all the advice.

I have already modified my speed to a boat that I hope on a reasonable day will do 200 miles. However the real test is that it should sail well in light winds below 25 knots and still do so when the wind is 10 knots. When the wind is above 25 knots the weather itself dictates the maximum speed which will be lower the higher the wind. In 35 knots of wind I would probably be doing 6 knots. In 45 knots probably 1 or 2 knots with a drogue out or be heaved to with a parachute.

I have reached the conclusion that high speeds do not go together with comfortable handling by a crew of 2 and comfort/safety feature higher on our list than speed in itself.

More stuff on board = less speed is a fact. One of the reasons we want a fairly large boat (46 to 50 foot) is so that the stuff will have less effect on the boat and of course the longer waterline helps with speed.

The whole thing is a compromise and I am slowly sorting out a balance of what I am looking for. This forum is helping me a lot in this process and I thank everyone for their contribution.
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Old 09-07-2008, 06:08   #30
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Hi All, New Boat on the block!!!!

Freeflow Catamarans

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