No joy on shore power

[Bigjim]

FYI, to everyone, I have done all my own electrical work for my house and my car in the past. I am knowledgable about the basics of wiring and power for general tasks. I can install outlets, lighting, run cable and do some diagnostics. I know what I know and more importantly, I know what I don't know.

But since we are sailors and often offshore, no electrician will be making a house call once we are untied. Yes, I plan to have a "professional" look at the boat and give me an assessment. But this doesn't preclude me from testing the batteries and replacing them first. If my car doesn't turn over I don't need a mechanic to tell me there's something wrong with the battery or electrical system.

I have checked batteries before and know how to use a voltmeter to test for voltage and resistance. My first step is to simply check and replace the batteries if they are dead. No experts are needed for this. I had other priorities last time I was on the boat but this time I'll bring the right tools.

My first concern or question was on basic electric system design. It sounds like most people have at least two separate battery systems, one for the engine (starting) and one for the house (cabin). Someone called me "naive" to think that my cabin power would work when attached to shore power.

Is that true? If that's the case then what's the purpose of the shore power in the first place? Do I need to have DC lights AND AC lights? To me it would be logical that whenever you "plug in" I'd want all my power needs supplied as well as charging of the batteries.

Sorry if these comments are too basic or "naive". I have only owned day sailers before. I'm trying to learn and I thought this was the best place to do it.

(BTW, I'm not trying to avoid using an electrician or mechanic. But there should be things that any average owner should be able to do for themselves. Once these are exhausted, I'm calling in the experts.)

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

Naive? Really? I served aboard a US Navy destroy that was entirely DC powered. When we docked we hooked up to AC shore power. All the lights and outlets still worked.

I have a camping trailer. It is entirely DC powered. I have a DC battery in the trailer. When I'm hooked up to shore power the DC lights work. When I'm on battery power, my AC outlets are powered.

I hardly think is it "naive" to expect your internal systems to be powered no matter where the power comes from. If I designed a system from scratch, that is how I would design it. I guess I'm just "naive".

Perhaps that is NOT the way my boat is set up, I just bought it, so I'm not certain. But that is way I would want it to work.

Since I don't know HOW it was set up, I posed the question. To me, it's nice to hear how others have their boats set up or how they want them to be.

Hi Jim,

Perhaps your knowledge of electrical systems is reasonably good, but based how your original question was worded it was not clear that you did have any basic understanding of AC and DC systems.

Since messing with 120V AC can be dangerous, even more so when boats and water come into play, maybe you can understand the note of caution from many of the replies.

From your descriptions I have to say it still isn't totally clear how much you understand about electrical systems. For example, your camping trailer you mention the AC outlets work when you're on battery. How so? Are you saying the trailer has an inverter? What size/capacity? Is there one on your boat as well?

Making your questions more complete and including more detail would help a lot.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by nematon785

Before hiring an electrician, you can check a few things very easily without putting yourself in danger.

1st, if you just want light inside the boat, plug a lamp into your cord, bypass the boat electrical system entirely. Finish the project you started.

2nd, flip switches. try breakers, check GFI type outlet resets, battery main, light switches, etc...

If your battery charger is receiving power, it likely will have some indication, such as an led at green or red.

I think it helps to remember there are 2 systems here. 110v and 12v. If using a multimeter is too dangerous or risky pull a battery, toss in the car, have it checked at Auto zone (I'll save you the trip, they are gonna tell you it's dead)

Throw your car battery in there, see if your interior lights and the vhf turn on, If so, 12v DC works. You just cut your problem diagnosis in half. Don't leave it on too long, you want to be able to start your car when it is time to go home. Now you can look at things between shore power from your cord to your charger.

If disconnecting your battery is too dangerous or risky, well, I don't know what to say...

I conduct marine electrical seminars at yacht clubs and retailers in Ontario.

Among many other subjects, we cover proper battery handling procedures.

After attending one of my seminars, about a year later, a sailing friend, an avid and winning racer at the club and in interclub regattas, having two boats of his own, and a partnership in a third for the big races, was disconnecting a battery...

He ignored my teachings.

While disconnecting the positive terminal with a crescent wrench, the wrench touched his metal watch band, which touched the negative terminal.

He received second degree burns to his right wrist he wore the watch on.

He also received second degree burns to his left hand taking a very hot watch off his right wrist.

He was off work (and more importantly, the race circuit) for 6 weeks, while his hands healed.

Fortunately the hot molten metal from the terminal, wrench, or watch, did not land in his eye(s), which could easily cause at least temporary (if not permanent) blindness.

Thank goodness there were no combustible fumes present, in which case they may have found his smoldering, charred remains, some distance away.

So yes, disconnecting batteries, even by a very knowledgeable boater, can be very dangerous, if proper battery handling procedures are not followed to the letter.

How many here know all of the proper battery handling procedures, and employ them EVERY time they connect or disconnect a battery?

I know the answer, "Almost None". Because they just don't follow proper safety procedures, or never knew them in the first place.

If y'all do, then why do so many people get hurt while doing this every year?

I have seen several boats burned to waterline by improper battery handling.

I have seen several people hurt by spilled/splashed battery acid.

I have seen several people hurt by improper battery lifting practices.

This is DANGEROUS $#!+.

Never be lulled into improper battery handling or marine wiring practices because you haven't been hurt yet.

There is always tomorrow.

Boating allows us all kinds of freedoms, including the freedom to become complacent and lack discipline and diligence when it comes to safety.

Many who learn the hard way aren't alive to tell the story here, or most certainly are no longer boating, and don't frequent boating forums, as it brings back too many painful memories.

Am I overacting?

Just Google "Boat Fire" and click on the images tab.

I have been way too close, to way too many boat fires, (before, during, and after the incident) to be complacent, or to suggest to a newbie, "Just plug it in...".

By all means have fun, but be careful out there.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

FYI, to everyone, I have done all my own electrical work for my house and my car in the past. I am knowledgable about the basics of wiring and power for general tasks. I can install outlets, lighting, run cable and do some diagnostics. I know what I know and more importantly, I know what I don't know.

I have read this and I'm sure you believe this but your questions indicate otherwise. Perhaps you should buy one or two good books on boat electrical systems and wiring and study them. Compare what you see in the books to0 your own boat and then you'll know what to expect.

You mention lights. On my boat, the lights run off 12 volts DC and are connected to the house batteries through an electrical panel and circuit breakers. They won't work if the batteries are dead. On shore power, they still run off the batteries but the batteries are being charged at the same time.

Not all boats are wired this way. Some boats have dual lighting systems, 12 volts and 120 volts. In general, these would be bigger boats with gensets.

It's not really possible to diagnose your electrical problems on a web forum. There are too many variables and too much chance of misunderstanding.

Again, my suggestion to you is to bring in a pro to make sure everything is wired the way it is supposed to be. Ask questions while he is there. Buy the books and study them. That way, you'll be better prepared in the future for any problems.

[thomm225]

You should be able to find the answers to all your electrical questions online (or at your local library) rather than getting opinions on a forum

I removed my old diesel engine (using the boom and some rope) which had an alternator. I replaced it with an outboard. The outboard doesn't have an alternator.

Then I hooked up the solar mostly from visual observations of the boat's electrical system.

The good thing about my system is that I don't have or need a starter battery. My whole boat probably needs to be rewired though it's so old

There are lots of techie types on here that really know their electronics and electrical systems.

Sometimes they/we don't realize that everyone isn't hardwired with the same skill set

[DeepFrz]

BigJim; why don't you give us a wiring diagram of your electrical system so that we can make knowledgeable suggestions. You could also tell us what measurements you have made and where and what the results were.

[Bigjim]

Originally Posted by thomm225

He just meant you seemed not to know that most sailboats like yours (and mine) run mainly off of DC from the onboard batteries.

Mine doesn't even have a receptacle for the shore power plug. I have to run it all the way in and then I only have one fluorescent light that I would plug into it or on rare occasions a battery charger.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/images/icons/icon2.gif
I do have an AC Inverter though powered from my 12 volt batteries to run my fan, laptop, charge my phone, etc

I'm rarely hooked to shore power because I have a 100 watt solar panel charging my two 12 volt batteries (which are in parallel) through a controller

You're right. I don't know. That's why I'm asking. As for my camping trailer, yes, the AC outlets work on the battery. Wouldn't be very helpful if they didn't. We want to go off grid sometimes and need to run laptops and such. Yes, it has an inverter. I can't tell you the power rating of the inverter. We've only had it a year and bought it used. Also got some solar panels with a regulator to hook up when we are "off the grid".

The trick is to take what you know, ask questions and get tips from others to apply what you know in an intelligent manner. For example, I would never touch the power converter or mess with the charging system, like I don't mess with my electrical supply box in the basement.

But, when I see a question that is not correct, I don't assume the person is ignorant. I ask a clarifying question, like you and others did on this thread. What good does it do to call names. I've got a good ego, but that's the kind of attitude that might make others give up and shrink away and try something dangerous on their own. Who benefits from that?

My first question was basically, "Should I expect the house lights to work on shore power?" I don't think that was naive or stupid at all. In my life experience that has always been how things have worked.

Just like, "if my car battery is dead, the dome light and radio should start working as soon as you connect a good battery to the car to jump start it". If not, it's probably NOT the battery. I assumed that I would see "some signs of life" by connecting to shore power. That's why I asked. Is that stupid?

Another commenter said that was exactly how his Beneteau was set up. And it makes logical sense to me. Run the power through the batteries so they are always being charged, convert all power from the system as needed. Having two completely separate systems to me is not logical.

Not knowing the boat, or how it was set up, I had expectations that were not fulfilled. There were no sounds, lights or other activity at all once I was plugged in. I never thought of trying the AC outlets. But next time I will, because someone suggested that.

That was helpful. Name-calling isn't.

Thanks

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

I hardly think is it "naive" to expect your internal systems to be powered no matter where the power comes from.

This single sentence confirms for me that you do not understand marine electrical systems sufficiently to safely troubleshoot and repair one.

I was an EET (Electronic Engineering Technician from Sir Sandford Fleming College) with 30 years experience in the design, manufacturing, installation, commissioning, troubleshooting, and repair of automotive electrical systems, industrial process instrumentation, commercial wiring devices, and commercial HVAC/R systems before studying ABYC and NMEA marine standards.

I was shocked (not literally) at what I didn't know about marine wiring, despite my quite extensive prior background in pretty much everything electrical / electronic.

So based on your posts to date, your stated background (not to be sniffed at by any means), in my opinion, is not sufficient qualification to safely do what you are considering, and yes, "naïve" (not to be insulting) is the proper term.

You have no idea what you don't know about marine electrical systems, and that most certainly can hurt you, your loved ones, or the person who buys the boat from you when you are done with it.

You may be successful getting it to work by trial and error.

Will you be safe while doing so?

Will it be safe afterward?

In my experience, with my best educated guess, there is at least a 90% chance it will not be.

Your boat / my advice, do as you will (but my conscience will be clear regardless.)

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

................. That was helpful. Name-calling isn't.

When you post on a web forum, it's best to be wearing your "big boy" panties. It's quite common to get some replies that you don't like.

Personally. I remain convinced that you know little about electricity. Replacing an outlet in your home does not make you an electrician. Running cables does not make you an electrician. Someone suggested going to a library for all your answers. That won't work.

Electricians typically train as apprentices (with formal schooling as well) for four years before they are able to work independently. Perhaps someone could learn to work on a boat in less, but you're not going to learn it all on a web forum or in a library.

You posted above that you know what you don't know. I don't believe that's the case.

Complaining about the responses you've gotten to your questions isn't going to get you the answers you need. If you don't understand how your boat is wired (and they are no0t all wired the same), you need someone there on the boat who can figure it out.

[ramblinrod]

Interesting side note, sorta related...

Question: What is the fastest method to determine if a vessel has a hardwired DC-AC inverter connected to the AC distribution system?

Answer: According to ABYC standards, one should be able to check the label stating so, applied near the main AC breaker.

Problem: How many vessels with a DIY hard-wired DC-AC inverter have this label applied near the main AC breaker?

Answer: Almost none.

Result: Whenever I step aboard a vessel to work on the AC system, when I shut off the main AC breaker, I have to check to ensure there is no AC available at the circuit I am about to work on, even if there is no shore power connected to the boat.

[Bigjim]

Everyone should just take a breath. I am not naive in any sense of that word. I am just not educated in how my boat or a marine electrical system is set up. But I'm willing to learn. I don't expect you to fix my boat or tell me what's wrong with it.

Yes, batteries and electricity can be dangerous. I never said I was an expert. I said I did my own wiring and troubleshooting.

But I think it is very doable for me to check and replace my batteries. Once done, we will see. Someone asked for a wiring diagram. The one in my owner's manual is hand drawn, and not very detailed, but I'll post it if it helps anyone.

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

The trick is to take what you know, ask questions and get tips from others to apply what you know in an intelligent manner. For example, I would never touch the power converter or mess with the charging system, like I don't mess with my electrical supply box in the basement.

Many here though including me, would "mess" with a charging system that wouldn't work or an electrical box.

My experience is similar to the Engineering Tech's in the posts above but in my field we have gone from total electronics to "boxes"(computers) hooked together with Ethernet to other "boxes." Sometime multiple systems networked together so they can fly in formation (virtually). Then for analog and digital I/O we use Phoenix on the new systems))

Many of these "boxes" don't even have their own individual disk drives anymore. The drives are in a central location.

We also have or had until recently huge hydraulic rams for the motion base

We have 386 and 486 computers

We have old main frame computers

We have turbo prop engines and engine simulators

You better not complain about your computer running slow either or some computer whiz kid will question you as to what is running right now on your computer.

What's your CPU run percentage at? Did you check your task manager? Have you gotten rid of that Norton you aren't paying for that's still running? (but is of no use to you)

And you better know at bit about computer languages also

The point is there is so much to know these days because we have both new systems and old systems that it's hard to be an expert at everything but many tech types can usually figure it out given enough info

I have to hire old school guys for some of the stuff and computer whiz kids that cannot begin to read a schematic for other stuff.............

These cruisers guys that sail off the grid have to know a bit about all their systems in case no mech/elec tech is available

[guyrj33]

bigjim;
It is naive of you to think that a cal 27 sailboat is in anyway comparable to a navy destroyer.
Do you have an inverter charger on your boat?
Have you checked the batteries?
How many batteries do you have? Voltage and wiring configuration please.
Battery switch?
AC power distribution panel?
if yes, what is connected to it?
Trace one of your lighting circuits back to the source (here's a hint it will be a battery).
How are your batteries charged?

[nematon785]

Before we get too carried away, I will just point out that I have seen licensed electricians do dangerous things, wire things incorrectly, and wire entire runs hot.

I have received an invoice from an ASE cert mechanic for replacement of rotors and pads...on a vehicle that had drums

I have had a specialist prescribe medication that caused a dramatic increase in the problem, and his response was to prescribe the same, just stronger.

I have met Licensed Attorneys that have lost huge amounts of money for their clients based on technicalities they overlooked.

Big Jim, dont let them bully you. if you want to hire someone, fine. if you want to change your battery on your own, you and I both know you can handle it.

Gawd help me if I did everything my realtor told me "because im naive, and she knows how it all works"

[Bigjim]

Here's the diagram of the Cal 27 Mk3 electrical system

Cruisers & Sailing Forums - Bigjim's Album: Electrical system for Cal-27

It looks the two systems are separate.