I think I toasted my alternator - now what?

[Wraith_Mac]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Gee, it's like back to the Future: an AutoMac!

In addition to the Belt Manager feature, I use this

Small Engine Mode - discussion with link to the picture of the toggle switch: Alternator heat, Regulator Controls, Small Engine Mode

Stu,
The link leads to a "Code 58 Error, Sorry Guest, you are banned from using this forum".
Cheers,
Mac

[pbiJim]

Originally Posted by Wraith_Mac

Stu,
The link leads to a "Code 58 Error, Sorry Guest, you are banned from using this forum".
Cheers,
Mac

For some reason, it let me in. I'm not going to post the whole thread, but the individual post that came up from that link was this -

NEW IDEA REGARDING AMP MANAGEMENT FROM REGULATORS
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2008, 09:44:20 PM »

Craig, occurs to me that voltage isn't important in this analysis, since the regulator is doing its 36 minutes routine.

NEW IDEA REGARDING AMP MANAGEMENT FROM REGULATORS

SMALL ENGINE MODE

This thread has summarized the issues related to smart regulator control of higher amperage alternators.

Here's something I just learned and installed from this thread.

Amp management seems to have been used by many skippers to reduce alternator output, for whatever reasons that have been mentioned and are quite valid.

The concept, basically, is to reduce alternator output and heat, engine load, and belt slippage when running at cruising speed after a night or two at anchor when the house bank is down and the regulator is instructing the alternator to max output. Kyle's original start to this thread reported high alternator temperatures doing this, which I confirmed shortly thereafter.

We've discussed the fact that a good 400 AH house bank will have an acceptance rate of about 50A with a 70 to 100+++ alternator.

There are, actually, TWO different ways to do amp management (with programmable regulators, such as our Balmar Max Charge MC 612).

1. Use the program, which will require you to reprogram when you change your charging needs. Needs to use the "magic wand" on the indicator lights.

2. Use the SMALL ENGINE MODE. This requires a toggle switch between alternator heat sense quick connect spades on the regulator board. Switch in one position lets the full power signal to the alternator. Other position is 50% of required output.

We tried it, it works. 360 AH bank, down -80 AH in a twenty six hour period at anchor. 2,450 rpm cruising speed, when ON: 50 A, when off 25A. As noted above, the voltage is controlled by the regulator phases. It also tells you how the alternator temperature sensor works: it's simply a heat triggered switch, and what it does is cut the alternator output in half like the toggle switch; if you have an alternator heat sensor installed, you could still do this in series with it.

I figure when the alternator output hits (or gets down to) between 12 to 18 I'd flip the switch back to full and get 24 to 36 A.

We have the M25 engine, 2250 engine hours, a two year old Blue Circle 100 A alternator, Balmar Max Charge MC-612 regulator and a Link 2000.

Summary:

One simple toggle switch allows you to easily control the regulator's signal for alternator output.

No programming, or reprogramming, is necessary. The "magic wand" reed switch is sometimes not the easiest "tool" to use.

Thanks to Jon Schneider and others for noting the amp management features, and suggesting that I [dare I say this??? ] actually read the manual!

If you haven't gotten around to do either of these yet, you could also turn the ignition key off once the engine is running. That's like turning off the power to the regulator. Down side of this is it turns the engine hour meter and tach off, too.

[Rusty123]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

If you go external regulation you can buy a larger alt then de-tune it in "belt manager" to 80A and it will run cooler and work less hard. You will also get 80A out of it all day long not 65-70A you'd get when hot on an 80A alt.

I talked to Dale at Balmar - he pointed out that higher rated alternators within the same frame size (series 6, for example) use heavier wire in the stator. Although this provides greater max output, it also requires higher RPM to deliver. This is apparent when comparing the output graphs.

In other words, a de-rated 125 amp alternator might have a flatter output curve than a 70 amp alternator, even though they might have the same peak output.

Probably not an overriding consideration, but something to keep in mind.

[colemj]

This is true, but you can change pulleys very easily to compensate.

Mark

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Rusty123

I talked to Dale at Balmar - he pointed out that higher rated alternators within the same frame size (series 6, for example) use heavier wire in the stator. Although this provides greater max output, it also requires higher RPM to deliver. This is apparent when comparing the output graphs.

In other words, a de-rated 125 amp alternator might have a flatter output curve than a 70 amp alternator, even though they might have the same peak output.

Probably not an overriding consideration, but something to keep in mind.

I am well aware of that but the the larger alt, run at lower output, will run cooler and put out the current you need or want for as long as you need or want it..

Buy an 70A alt based on the max you belt load you can drive and when hot you will get only 60A at 2250 alternator RPM

Buy a 120A alt and dial it back to 80A and you will get 80A at 2250 alt RPM when hot...

Course these curves are ALT RPM not engine. If you figure a 2:1 pulley ratio that means that at 1000 engine RPM the alt is spinning at 2000 RPM so at 1250 RPM, fast idle, the alt is at 2500 RPM and the 120A alt can develop 100A and the 70A alt is still maxing out at about 62A.......

[bill good]

Just back from a 6 weeks trip & have been following this with some interest as I have 2 x 1GMs & a lot of Rusty123s troubles has shown up over time with my boat. note for Flying Cloud ref # 19 My Yanmar needs the power levers well up to start & that is well above 2000 RPM which will load a 50+A alternator & can/may effect the starting of the Yanmars. I also went down the path of 250A each side for house batteries & have gone back to smaller starting batteries with the house batteries mainly solar. Most alternators are not continious rated but are intended to recharge the starting battery after normal start (within minuites) then supply the normal electrical load of a vehicle (boat) at about 50% ie if rated 50A the expect 25A running for hour after hour.

My advice Rusty123 & his Yanmar - repair the orginal 35A & not go pass KISS!! (I have had belt slipping with the 50A several times over the past 6 weeks). Just for info I am trying LIFEPO4s as starting batteries & they bring up a new bunch of considerations from lead.

Regards Bill
ps I will be removing the 50A & repairing the 35A alternator for my boat ASAP

[forsailbyowner]

Originally Posted by pbiJim

I seem to remember that the 10si Delco alternators came in various amp capacities. I think that some were like 35 amp, some were 60-something amp, etc. I don't know how to tell them apart by looking at them though. How do you know that yours is a 100-amp? Is there a tag or a casting mark or something like that?

Mine was purchased new as a 100 amp one wire, I see custom wound stators that can tune the alternator to a wide range of outputs at various rpms. also see someone on ebay that has two rotors and stators mounted together to double the output

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by Wraith_Mac

Stu,
The link leads to a "Code 58 Error, Sorry Guest, you are banned from using this forum".
Cheers,
Mac

+1

There is something wrong with YOUR site.

I tried many times to register and couldn't even do that. One day it worked and I registered OK - but now I can't even login!

[Cheechako]

[QUOTE=Maine Sail;1375657]I am well aware of that but the the larger alt, run at lower output, will run cooler and put out the current you need or want for as long as you need or want it..

Buy an 70A alt based on the max you belt load you can drive and when hot you will get only 60A at 2250 alternator RPM

Buy a 120A alt and dial it back to 80A and you will get 80A at 2250 alt RPM when hot...

Course these curves are ALT RPM not engine. If you figure a 2:1 pulley ratio that means that at 1000 engine RPM the alt is spinning at 2000 RPM so at 1250 RPM, fast idle, the alt is at 2500 RPM and the 120A alt can develop 100A and the 70A alt is still maxing out at about 62A.......[/QUOTE]
I wonder what the alternator is turning at Yanmar's rated 3600 rpm? !

[FlyingCloud1937]

[QUOTE=Cheechako;1380756]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

I am well aware of that but the the larger alt, run at lower output, will run cooler and put out the current you need or want for as long as you need or want it..

Buy an 70A alt based on the max you belt load you can drive and when hot you will get only 60A at 2250 alternator RPM

Buy a 120A alt and dial it back to 80A and you will get 80A at 2250 alt RPM when hot...

Course these curves are ALT RPM not engine. If you figure a 2:1 pulley ratio that means that at 1000 engine RPM the alt is spinning at 2000 RPM so at 1250 RPM, fast idle, the alt is at 2500 RPM and the 120A alt can develop 100A and the 70A alt is still maxing out at about 62A.......[/QUOTE]
I wonder what the alternator is turning at Yanmar's rated 3600 rpm? !

Here play with this.




Here is the link to an excel spreadsheet.

Pulley Size Calculator.

You can play what if.

Lloyd

[Cheechako]

I wonder what the alternator is turning at Yanmar's rated 3600 rpm? !
actually I wasnt disputing... really am curious... Yanmar and other higher rpm manufacturers must down size/up size the pullys to slow things down...?

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I wonder what the alternator is turning at Yanmar's rated 3600 rpm? !
actually I wasnt disputing... really am curious... Yanmar and other higher rpm manufacturers must down size/up size the pullys to slow things down...?

If it is a 2:1 at 3600RPM then you multiply by 2 = 7200 Alt RPM...

If it is a 1.7:1 then you multiply by 1.7 = 6120 Alt RPM...

Most alts are rated at 6500 RPM or better with some small case alts capable of spinning at 12,000 to 17,000 RPM..

[Stu Jackson]

Jim,

Thanks for C&P the link. Sorry it didn't work for that skipper. Today is the first day I've heard form either two skippers or the same one that it didn't work, and I've been posting and linking for years without issues or complaints. As I mentioned in another thread where someone said the link didn't work for him, I'm sorry, I'm not the webmaster, it's beyond me or my control. Many of my links are posted because they have pictures, this was not one of them.

Thanks again,

Stu

Originally Posted by pbiJim

For some reason, it let me in. I'm not going to post the whole thread, but the individual post that came up from that link was this -

NEW IDEA REGARDING AMP MANAGEMENT FROM REGULATORS
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2008, 09:44:20 PM »

Craig, occurs to me that voltage isn't important in this analysis, since the regulator is doing its 36 minutes routine.

NEW IDEA REGARDING AMP MANAGEMENT FROM REGULATORS

SMALL ENGINE MODE

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Jim,

Thanks for C&P the link. Sorry it didn't work for that skipper. Today is the first day I've heard form either two skippers or the same one that it didn't work, and I've been posting and linking for years without issues or complaints....

Stu,

The other skipper who reported an error - different error code to mine - was in Australia.

I've posted SEVERAL times over the last TWO years that your interesting links don't work for me.

I know you are not the webmaster, but I'm sure you do know him.