GFIC Wiring

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Chas Erwin

Dave's point is a fantasy.

A GFI (an ELCI too) monitors the difference between the "white" (neutral) and the "black" (hot). If the difference between those two is > 5ma the GFI trips. The existence of safety "green" (ground) is irrelevant to the device.

If the source neutral is NOT tied to ground, how is there a ever a difference between neutral and hot? The electrons have to have a path back to the source.

Originally Posted by Chas Erwin

And anyway - one never bonds/connects (neutral) "white" to safety "green" (ground) on the boat not ever - absent an isolation transformer/inverter/generator source.

Electric codes are jurisdictional, not everybody does it the same.

BTW, the thread is all about inverters and GFCIs.

[FlyingCloud1937]

Before I respected electricity I used to pop the hood on my 68 GTO in the parking lot while cruising. Then I would pop a spark plug wire and grab it in one hand, then, when one of my cohorts unsuspectingly popped under the hood, I would reach out and grab him...scared the b-jesus out of em every-time.

Then I changed to a Mallory Dual-Point and a HV-Coil, then it not only hurt, but scared the b-jesus out of me.

Then in college, I worked installing commercial counter tops. I bumped into line voltage 120v, all the time, scared me but didn't really hurt.

I use to grab my buddy with one hand on the line, he had just enough resistance between his boots, and body to only scare him.

But then I saw a commercial electrician on the job grab 220, with wet boots, he didn't let go until the circuit breaker popped.

I grew up around marine batteries. The first day on a job, my boss went down to disconnect the battery bank, So I could labor them out of the hull.

I said better take that watch off...it's the rules...No worries he said. Then I heard a loud pop, and smelled magic smoke. He arced his watch between pos and neg. He ended up loosing his hand from about an inch or 2 above his wrist.

The last lesson, I needed to learn was, 1'st year out of college. Working on a construction site. When a brick delivery truck showed up with with a half pallet of bricks. The driver didn't think he needed his out-riggers down for such a light load.

He grabbed the remote control, and then swung the boom into a 780 volt line. He became the ground source.

I watched him bounce and hit the ground a dozen times, each time the current popped out of his body it raised a lump about a foot in diameter.

Every-time his body hit ground it was not enough to fault the 780v CB. Somewhere around 20 hits, a concrete foreman grabbed a 20 foot long 2X4 and knocked the controller out of his hand.

Needless to say he didn't live, and resembled more a BB'Qed piece of meat then a human.

Electrical safety is a result of accidents, not someone trying to sell you something.

Lloyd

[FlyingCloud1937]

For got to include the most important lesson.

I went to college in North Dallas, one of the mechanics that worked for my boss, went to a job on a boat in a Hot Marina, it was late and he decided to take a leak off the dock, he reached one hand up to the down spout, while doing so.

Went into de-fib fell in the lake and drowned.

Don't pee in a marina.

Lloyd

[Nor'Sea 27]

Obviously - despite clear explanation explanation how GFI and ELCI devices operate some folks claim these devices cannot possibly operate in the manner they do.

In addition - some think codes/rules are of "regional application." Hence evidently electrocution events also vary from region to region. The problem is that all codes are universal in requiring that shore safety green and neutral shall never be connected on the boat.

I can offer no more except this - stop arguing and please find out how these devices work. Your health - possibly the well being of those you love - depend on understanding how to use these devices.

Charles

[svmariane]

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

Electrical safety is a result of accidents, not someone trying to sell you something. Lloyd

So let's go to what the regs say for US boats...

ABYC regulation E–13.3.5 states:
“If installed in a head, galley, machinery space, or on a weather deck, the receptacle shall be protected by a Type A (nominal 5 milliamperes) Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI).”

ABYC regulation E–11.11.1 states:
“An Equipment Leakage Circuit Interrupter (ELCI) shall be installed with or in addition to the main shore power disconnect circuit breaker(s) or at the additional overcurrent protection as required by E–11.10.2.8.3 whichever is closer to the shore power connection.”

Thanks, and a tip of the hat to Gordo in this CF session from 12/7/2011:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...red-64087.html

Mind you, my boat is registered in Austria and meets her home-country requirements. Different countries and jurisdictions have their own rules, sure,
but I'm not about to knock ABYC standards as either irrelevant or idiotic.

I've posted (above somewhere) wiring diagrams for one GFCI with extra "normal"outlets downstream.

I've posted (above somewhere) wiring diagrams for multiple GFCIs on one power run.

And now I've posted the ABYC rules for GFCI and ELCI.

You chaps can continue to dance on the head of a pin if you please.

I'm out of this...

James

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Chas Erwin

Obviously - despite clear explanation explanation how GFI and ELCI devices operate some folks claim these devices cannot possibly operate in the manner they do.

In addition - some think codes/rules are of "regional application." Hence evidently electrocution events also vary from region to region. The problem is that all codes are universal in requiring that shore safety green and neutral shall never be connected on the boat.

I can offer no more except this - stop arguing and please find out how these devices work. Your health - possibly the well being of those you love - depend on understanding how to use these devices.

Charles

Your earlier point about confusion is becoming clearer.

1) This thread is discussing the use of GFCI outlets and Inverters.
2) Not all jurisdictions require to connect Inverter neutral to boat ground.
3) If Inverter neutral is NOT connected to boat ground, a GFCI outlet cannot provide proper protection.

Do you agree with the above 3 points?

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by Chas Erwin

Obviously - despite clear explanation explanation how GFI and ELCI devices operate some folks claim these devices cannot possibly operate in the manner they do.

In addition - some think codes/rules are of "regional application." Hence evidently electrocution events also vary from region to region. The problem is that all codes are universal in requiring that shore safety green and neutral shall never be connected on the boat.

I can offer no more except this - stop arguing and please find out how these devices work. Your health - possibly the well being of those you love - depend on understanding how to use these devices.

Charles

What they don't get/understand is GFI and ELCI stop VA/s are designed to stop defib before they reach the critical results.

Faults still happen.

So yes, a proper ground fault protection is still required . If you value your life or those that are aboard, and swim in the waters.

Faults happen...I am tired of hearing, the if you have a GFI and ELCI, you don't have to worry about grounding shore, and DC bonding.

Lloyd

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by svmariane

So let's go to what the regs say for US boats...

ABYC regulation E–13.3.5 states:
“If installed in a head, galley, machinery space, or on a weather deck, the receptacle shall be protected by a Type A (nominal 5 milliamperes) Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI).”

ABYC regulation E–11.11.1 states:
“An Equipment Leakage Circuit Interrupter (ELCI) shall be installed with or in addition to the main shore power disconnect circuit breaker(s) or at the additional overcurrent protection as required by E–11.10.2.8.3 whichever is closer to the shore power connection.”

Thanks, and a tip of the hat to Gordo in this CF session from 12/7/2011:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...red-64087.html

Mind you, my boat is registered in Austria and meets her home-country requirements. Different countries and jurisdictions have their own rules, sure,
but I'm not about to knock ABYC standards as either irrelevant or idiotic.

I've posted (above somewhere) wiring diagrams for one GFCI with extra "normal"outlets downstream.

I've posted (above somewhere) wiring diagrams for multiple GFCIs on one power run.

And now I've posted the ABYC rules for GFCI and ELCI.

You chaps can continue to dance on the head of a pin if you please.

I'm out of this...

James

Just in case you didn't get my point, we are on the same page. ABYC reg's are a result of accident investigation, in hand with trying to make boating safer for all.

Without out the gov. taking over control.

Lloyd

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Your earlier point about confusion is becoming clearer.

2) Not all jurisdictions require to connect Inverter neutral to boat ground.
3) If Inverter neutral is NOT connected to boat ground, a GFCI outlet cannot provide proper protection.

Many inverters are capable of 5 Ma's between neutral and ground.

So all marine inverters in the US are required by CFR's to be bonded.

This rule is by accident, but not accidental. But from accident investigation.

UL requirements require N-Earth bonding. when they are the source.
Xantrex is famous for this rule. Prior to their Canadian purchaser Xantrex absoluted the need for a N-earth switching relay. But when they went cheap, the then said no ya don't need it, then found a loop whole in the UL.

That is now closed, and all new xantrex/china for US say it's required.

Lloyd

[smac999]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Your earlier point about confusion is becoming clearer.

1) This thread is discussing the use of GFCI outlets and Inverters.
2) Not all jurisdictions require to connect Inverter neutral to boat ground.
3) If Inverter neutral is NOT connected to boat ground, a GFCI outlet cannot provide proper protection.

Do you agree with the above 3 points?

1 yes
2. every marine inverter sold in north America comes like this internally. they automaticly connect N to G when the inverter is in use, and isolates them on pass through. I'm betting it's the same around the world as the same brands are sold around the world.

it's not something the installer or owner does. it's part of the inverter.

[smac999]

I`ve still yet to see an ELCI breaker on a boat. it was new code 1-2 years ago. and the code was released before any company even had a breaker on the market! LOL...

from what I`ve heard they false trip a lot. like when marina power is turned off an on. that is devastating for marina kept boats. come down to the boat after a couple weeks away to find your house batteries at 4v and all the food in the fridge and freezer rotten because the breaker tripped.

[smac999]

Originally Posted by macbeth

Repeat:

I checked regular outlets from the hardware store. Unfortunately, they are designed for household solid bare copper wire, and the strip connections holes on the back are consequently too small a diameter for the tinned wiring I installed in the boat some years ago !!

So I have a question: O1, the first outlet in the chain, a GFIC, i.e. connected to the AC shorepower or the inverter, has to be a Hubble to be accepted by Xantrix (sp ?) and thus ABYC.

Can I use my old Leviton GFICs down stream, i.e O2 and O3, just as ordinary outlets ? If so, how do I wire O1, O2, O3 ? The tinned wiring fits the holes in all these outlets.

you use the screws on the side and crimp rings onto the wire.

no you can`t use gfci`s as normal outlets.

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by smac999

1 yes
2. every marine inverter sold in north America comes like this internally. they automaticly connect N to G when the inverter is in use, and isolates them on pass through. I'm betting it's the same around the world as the same brands are sold around the world.

it's not something the installer or owner does. it's part of the inverter.

That's not exactly true....It's only true for Marine Rated Inverters.

All land based/installed/RV inverters don't require N-earth bonding relays.

It's funny that Xantrex are the biggest cavate emptor's (sp) on this issue, as Boat Electric in Seattle showed them early on a simple N-Earth Switching relay, which they quickly adopted, and added to all of their Marine units and even added Manufactures Warning on any non-Marine units must installed on a boat.

All of the latter Trace Marine units include a N-Earth Switching Relay, but none of the RV/Land Based inverters include this. As a matter of fact you have to de-bond the shore side neutral, from the inverter side N, if you want to add an auto SW relay.

Lloyd

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by smac999

I`ve still yet to see an ELCI breaker on a boat. it was new code 1-2 years ago. and the code was released before any company even had a breaker on the market! LOL...

from what I`ve heard they false trip a lot. like when marina power is turned off an on. that is devastating for marina kept boats. come down to the boat after a couple weeks away to find your house batteries at 4v and all the food in the fridge and freezer rotten because the breaker tripped.

You obviously don't see boats built in Europe. My 10 year old boat has a RCBO as the main breaker from the factory.

I also installed one on the primary side of my isolation transformer to help protect the core in case of a surge. My hope is the MOVs and gas tubes will fire quick enough to trip the ELCI before the core is damaged. (and I carry spare MOVs and gas tubes)

False trips? They do trip for a reason, but it may be one that isn't discernible.

Yep, once I found my T-105s 60% down as I hadn't checked the boat for 3-4 days. Since I put a relay on the solar controller to engage it when the shorepower is out. (I don't let 2 charging systems maintain my batteries for storage).

[macbeth]

Originally Posted by smac999

you use the screws on the side and crimp rings onto the wire.

no you can`t use gfci`s as normal outlets.

Thank you - an answer to my question.!!!!!

Thank goodness one person stuck to my question !! Wow, these threads can take off on a life of their own !

Thread finished from my perspective. Have fun you other guys with your ELCI stuff !