Do you really need tinned wire and lugs?

[BlackHeron]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I 100% agree that and standards documents referenced by public laws or developed using public funds should be freely available in full online

And that is exactly why they can get away with that fundraising model. We are also free to ignore them.

But apparently if you dare to challenge, question or criticize them on a public forum you get attacked by industry wonks who shoot back at you with personal criticisms and even insults. I didn't start with the personal attacks, I was only giving my own criticisms and opinions of a public organization and its proprietary standards. But I get personal attacks in return...

Yup, that's exactly how it goes I see.

[Colin A]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

I can go to the public library and check out a copy of the NEC and read it for free. It is not under copyright. In fact, since it is public law in most jurisdictions it must be view-able by the public, and can be obtained with a FOIA request.

ABYC is a proprietary and private standard.

PS. I don't care what you think of me. I'm never going to be on your boat and most definitely you never will be on mine. If you don't like me bad-mouthing a bad system like the ABYC "standards" that's not my problem. Think whatever you like of me.

Don't want to get in a fight but I would like to show you this link regarding the NEC NFPA. They are indeed copyrighted.
https://community.nfpa.org/community...-and-standards
You can indeed access them for free easier then ABYC but they are not public domain. Also parts of ABYC are incorporated into CFR's same with UL copyrighted standards.

[Olddan1943]

If you are out to sea or at an anchorage without the proper size wire, I'll bet you will use whatever you have on board, temporarily.

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by Colin A

Don't want to get in a fight but I would like to show you this link regarding the NEC NFPA. They are indeed copyrighted.
https://community.nfpa.org/community...-and-standards
You can indeed access them for free easier then ABYC but they are not public domain. Also parts of ABYC are incorporated into CFR's same with UL copyrighted standards.

Yes thanks for that, I think the legally enforceable parts of ABYC are published, and are available. If someone dies on your boat because of, for instance some of the bespoke chicanery witnessable in several posts here, you would be liable, you could be prosecuted.

Standards are not your enemy,
... early and otherwise avoidable death is your enemy

which is the sentiment that without a doubt a larger part of the civil industry has adopted

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/....E-09.1990.pdf

By the Authority Vested By Part 5 of the United States Code § 552(a) and
Part 1 of the Code of Regulations § 51 the attached document has been duly INCORPORATED BY REFERENCE and shall be considered legally
binding upon all citizens and residents of the United States of America.

HEED THIS NOTICE: Criminal penalties may apply for noncompliance.

[john61ct]

Carl Malamud is a prolific, tireless freedom fighter on this issue

A very funny hot take https://boingboing.net/2016/07/07/an...nks-we-sh.html

Good general backgrounder https://www.wired.com/2016/09/the-in...own-instigator

[BlackHeron]

I can buy a copy of the NEC without having to join the organization and being forced to support them financially and being counted as a "member."

https://www.abebooks.com/National-El...81455912773NEW

Kind of expensive for a paper-bound book but at least i own it and my rights to access don't expire with my membership.

But no, they want to be the gatekeepers of the knowledge of good and evil, and make it hard for people who want to work on their own boats to see the rules without joining their organizations. Its just a way to keep industry wonks in a position to charge more money for things, and control the labor force since only their own approved members can work on boats. What a scam. Even the labor unions don't have that much power.

Imagine how the movie Star Wars would have been different if the only way for Luke Skywalker to fight the Dark Side, Darth Vader and the Emperor, was to apply for membership in the dark side, pay the dark dues, indenture himself as an apprentice to a Dark Lord and only then try and work his way up the ranks in order to change things "from inside."

Speak truth to power. Don't let the bastards grind you down.

[transmitterdan]

I gave up some years ago the task of pointing out the failings of ABYC's business model regarding standards. They should offer for sale at reasonable prices copies of their standards and they should be on library shelves for anyone to read. There are several reasons:

1) Without access to the standard then ordinary people cannot verify when a surveyor or boatyard says "per ABYC you have to have X".

2) People who manage to get a copy, keep old bootleg copies (or worse, partial copies) and thus are not using the latest complete standard.

3) If the standard were readily available more people would use it and hopefully save some lives or at least reduce injuries.

I can understand only having members give input to the standard. But making it hard for the general public to get an up to date copy makes no sense.

If anyone knows how a non ABYC member can get up to date copies of ABYC standards let us know.

[TreblePlink]

The aviation wire I have worked with was stranded, Silver-plated, with Teflon insulation. If you really want to do it right, the first time, and have an installation that lasts, this is the very best choice. It is expensive though.

[transmitterdan]

The newer low smoke halogen free insulated wire is all the rage in some countries (e.g. EU). Does anyone know if this stuff is long lived in marine applications?

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

The newer low smoke halogen free insulated wire is all the rage in some countries (e.g. EU). Does anyone know if this stuff is long lived in marine applications?

Don't know about long lived but I have seen quite a bit of it specified in off-shore oil and gas installations in past 10 years.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Colin A

Don't want to get in a fight but I would like to show you this link regarding the NEC NFPA. They are indeed copyrighted.
https://community.nfpa.org/community...-and-standards
You can indeed access them for free easier then ABYC but they are not public domain. Also parts of ABYC are incorporated into CFR's same with UL copyrighted standards.

Indeed.

In the United States, statutory law cannot be copyrighted and is freely accessible by anyone.
When a standards organization, such as ANSI/NFPA 71, develops a new coding model and it is not yet accepted by any jurisdiction as law, it is still the private property of the standards organization and the reader may be restricted from downloading or printing the text for offline viewing. For that privilege, the coding model must still be purchased as either printed media or a CD-ROM.
Once the coding model has been accepted as law, it loses copyright protection and may be freely obtained at no cost.

➥ https://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarc...n~20030916.htm

➥ Free online access to NFPA codes and standards

[MrMotofy]

Aviation has a much different budget than most of us normal people. Virtually everything aviation is crazy expensive.

Need is a relative term...

I have used Dielectric grease on all electrical connections exposed to weather. Anyone heard of the rust belt??? Winters are brutal on anything exposed. The Dielectric will keep the connection sealed and in good condition for years while everything around is corroded.

Proper inspection and maintenance of wiring and connections is important in any critical environment.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, MrMotofy.

[GTom]

Reviving an ancient thread, recently removed the old rg58 coax from my boat: it was tinned, but near the deck connection corroded up about 5-6"! All the rest was perfect.
By mistake I ordered the non-tinned mini8 (7mm), definitely not sending back, will see how long that lasts. Sure thing I'll do everything to properly seal the connections and the only connector outside will be at antenna level.

[bgallinger]

I'm all for using tinned wire, but how critical is it in a non-saltwater (Great Lakes) environment?