420: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

[Intentional Drifter]

RE: Phasing out of the hybrids. If you go to the Lagoon website, you will see that they are now describing the 420 as having diesels as the standard and hybrid as the optional. The shift has already happened.

They have also started posting the replacement for the 380 -- the 400. No mention of hybrids.

ID

[sail2wind]

Originally Posted by LadySailor

We've had the Martha R booked for the end of January since last April...long before she arrived in the BVI. We've also been following Badgerman's rants (sorry but you do come across somewhat fanatical about it)of disappointment and Ess105 pleasure with Dignity since her arrival( I very much enjoy your logs and blogs on your site). We're certainly not experts by any means but the other couple we're going with owned their own boat and chartered it for 14 years down there before coming ashore. We have had plenty of time to change our mind but the reason we first chose the Martha R was that sense of adventure of trying the new technology. We're simply looking for a chance to leave the mountain winter behind for a short time and leisurely enjoy the water Yand decided to do it as comfortably as possible(getting older tends to make one think that way). We're not looking to race her, just sail her so have elected not to change our reservation despite her dismasting et al. We'll let you know what we think when we get back. Yes, I realize that she is not completely airconditioned as advertised when we booked but we're counting on this not being a major issue next month. Best if the Holidays to all of you.

Lady Sailor, We were the first to charter the Martha R. We had our challenges as expected with new technology. As far as comfort, galley, storage, she is wonderful. The refrigerator in the cockpit is a nice touch. The sushi table in the cockpit is very bizarre. Why no full sized table to eat comfortably? We had no A/C at all as promised, no compensation. The A/C design was done by the owners and is quite different from the stock version Steve has on the Dignity. One unit with the main register in the cabin and one small register in each hallway port and starboard, so you will need to leave the bedroom doors open to get cool air. Although without A/C, we always(not always) leave the cabin doors open for better circulation. I am not going to get into the specifics of our trip, some which has been mentioned in previous threads. All in all she is comfortable and easy to sail. We chartered her for the same reason you did, we were intrigued by the concept and are an adventurous couple. In the future will stick to the zoom, zoom of diesels, but I am sure you will have a great time. When Sam is doing your check out at TMM, tell him to shut up so you can leave. He is very long winded and insisits on a test sail. A friend who chartered the Jeannius, who has numerous charters under his belt, was told by Sam, he is the most dangerous kind of charter customer. Have a great time, Mike (Jeannius) you know the story.

[ess105]

Don't think down. Think up. We all know the hybrid gear is heavy. It's the 500 that's next. See link. Different system it seems. Over 2 months old so this could already be old news.

[LadySailor]

I really have enjoyed pro-con discussions regarding the 420. Thank you for all your input. I'm sure we'll have a great time(always do..lol) and since it's January we're not really that concerned with the a/c. If we had chartered it when you did, I also would have been upset with the lack of a/c. Thanks for the input.

[Jan B]

Originally Posted by Intentional Drifter

RE: Phasing out of the hybrids. If you go to the Lagoon website, you will see that they are now describing the 420 as having diesels as the standard and hybrid as the optional. The shift has already happened.

They have also started posting the replacement for the 380 -- the 400. No mention of hybrids.

ID

This is at least the second time someone has misread the Lagoon website regarding "options."

Here is a direct quote from their website:

Innovative, modern, easy to maneuver, cleverly designed, safe, fast, spacious, a boat for all the family to cruise in! The Lagoon 420 is offered with 2 propulsion systems:
- standard 40 hp diesel engines with sail drive
- hybrid: two electric motors, a generator, a bank of batteries. Under sail, the propellers are driven by the speed of the boat and recharge the batteries: this is called regeneration. An innovative system, ecological and quiet - a world exclusive on the Lagoon 420.


The way I read this, they are saying that the 420 now comes with a CHOICE of TWO PROPULSION SYSTEMS. One is propelled by standard 40 hp diesel engines and one is propelled by two electric motors, a generator and a bank of batteries.

Nowhere on their website do they state that the Hybrid Lagoon 420 is now an option and the diesel version the standard. Lagoon is simply responding to some sailors who prefer diesel, thus giving the customer TWO OPTIONS when purchasing the 420.

Having ordered a Hybrid Lagoon 420, I have read this thread with interest, but also sometimes with annoyance and confusion. I do not understand the need of some members of this forum to trash the 420. What is your motivation? I thought this was a forum of sailors who posted messages to help and learn from each other.

Go back and read the first post to this thread. Steve said, "Lots of interest, it seems, for the Lagoon 420. This thread is a hangout for owners (current or future) to hang out and get in touch. If you're a current, future or possible owner, please introduce yourself, and let us know your aspirarions."

If you meet this description, continue to read, respond, and learn from each other. Otherwise, please do those of us truly interested in gaining valuable information about the 420 a favor and stop posting messages with misinformation. Of course there are problems with the 420, as there are with any new version of a boat, car, computer operating system, etc. Those of us who are purchasing a 420 want to know the good, the bad, and the ugly, but not the deliberately misleading, derogatory information posted by some forum members.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Jan B

If you meet this description, continue to read, respond, and learn from each other. Otherwise, please do those of us truly interested in gaining valuable information about the 420 a favor and stop posting messages with misinformation. Of course there are problems with the 420, as there are with any new version of a boat, car, computer operating system, etc. Those of us who are purchasing a 420 want to know the good, the bad, and the ugly, but not the deliberately misleading, derogatory information posted by some forum members.

I am not sure I will be an owner but I am waiting to hear about yours when you get some time on it.
Thanks.

[Intentional Drifter]

Hi, Jan B, and welcome to the forum.

I will concur that one could read the Lagoon website in the way you indicate. However, even if it is as you suggest, this is still a significant shift from Lagoon's position on the matter, not that long ago.

Not that I would have expected you to do so, but if you have read my (many) earlier posts on this and related threads, you would have learned that I originally ordered a 420, back in 2/06 if my memory serves me correctly. For a long time time, it was Lagoon's publicly stated position that there would be no diesel 420's. That was firm. I asked my dealer point-blank about it before I ordered. The company's position remained the same through the Feb 2007 Miami boat show, when I asked the question of the Lagoon factory rep.

Then, the early reports started coming. Lagoon and the dealers started talking rather excitedly about how they were on top of it and it would all be worked out. I was told, again, point blank, no doubt about it, the fix would be in by hull #30. Has it been done? Do you know?

When I ordered my 420, I was told that I was buying a boat that: would be able to motor on batteries for up to 4 hours without the genset turning on; that it would regenerate power at about a 12:1 ratio (sailing 12 hours at 5 knots would regenerate enough power to motor for 1 hour); that the boat would consume, over the long range, between 30 to 50% less fuel than a conventional 3-diesel boat (2 propulsion + 1 genset); that there would be a desk and storage over the settee in the owner's boat; that the boat would motor under power at 8 knts; that it would weigh approximately 26,000 lbs; and that it would be more reliable and require less maintenance than a conventionally powered boat.

This was a very exciting prospect, to say the least. I was terribly disappointed and the decision not to continue with the 420 was a very difficult one.

I hope that you aren't including me in the "some forum members" who are posting "misleading, derogatory information." However, if you are, then allow me to set the record straight: As I said in one of my more recent posts in this thread, do not take my personal decisions and opinions as telling you what yours should be. The 420, even with a hybrid, may be the perfect boat, for you. If so, congratulations in your decision and purchase.

However, if you are, as you say, also interested in the "good, the bad, and the ugly" then this also connotes that you are doing your due diligence. Congratulations for that, too. No matter how you cut it, this is an expensive decision that will have significant effects on your lifestyle and pocketbook. In that case, do be aware of the history; what has been said and what has been done. Knowing that, you will be in a better position to make a fully informed decision.

You may also wish to join the Yahoo 420 group.

ID

[Badgerman]

Regeneration works well anchored in a 10 knot current.........
what a farce.......the boat hardly ever gets rolling fast enough to "regenerate"........the best approach would be to cut those huge props off with a sawzall.

[GordMay]

Worldwide First Serial Hybrid Propulsion System for Pleasure Boats
www.ibinews.com/ibinews/newsdesk/20071114145847ibinews.html

STEYR MOTORS and Frauscher Bootswerft have collaborated on the world's first production hybrid propulsion system for recreational boats. The two Austrian companies said that they would unveil the motor aboard a Frauscher boat at Boot Düsseldorf in January.

STEYR MOTORS: STEYR-MOTORS.com
Frauscher Bootswerft: Frauscher: Frauscher

[lufer]

First, I wish a happy, healty 2008 and safe sailing to all.

I follow up this site regularly. I am a green L440 owner now and busy preparing the boat.

I will apreciate if you can advice me where I can get lists of tools needed for diesel catamaran ( a full L440) and any practical advises for material that may be needed in a new cat?

THands

Balamber

[ess105]

And to you and congrats on your purchase. A good place to go for this information would be the Lagoon Owners forum on Yahoo Groups. lagooncatowners : Lagoon Catamaran Owners Group

[fastcat435]

I think it is great that Lagoon , Fountain Pajot and others are sticking out there necks to introduce new tecnical solutions like Hybrid propulsion in order to save on fossil fuels. This is a step in the right direction.The Problem they all have is that the boats they build are far to heavy to make it feasable to install a heavy Hybrid installation. The major problem arises with trying to adopt of the shelf motors , generators etc to accomplish this.
We at Africa Cats are doing it in a different much more costly way. We have developed new electrical underwater AC motors that are fed with a dc battery bank at 128 volts , the batteries are Lithium Ion to save weight the higher voltage saves weight in the motors/ cabling / generators etc.
The motors are retractable so if not used for propulsion or regeneration they are retracted up under the bridgedeck so no extra resistance is created and the props can be the most efficient types available , in this case slow revving aluminum props for a 900 RPM top setting.
The otherr difference in design we have taken is
We did not look at first how big the Motors needed to be for propulsion but only looked at the generation side of the Motogens , that is what we call our motors/generators
the advantages are listed below. the only disadvantage is a higher price

African Cats presents the
“FastCat 435 Green Motion Hybrid“
The first production yacht that is not dependent on fossil
fuels to get in and out of the harbours or motor around.
Within one month after introduction the first series of 12 yachts has
been sold already.
To increase efficiency, speed, lower fuel and maintenance cost African Cats has
developed electric motor/generators that retract from the water if no charging or
propulsion takes place.
The numerous advantages in this installation are:
1: The resistance while sailing is lowered and the actual sailing speed increases
because no sail drives, propellers, props shafts or shaft supports are in the flow of
the water and the result is lower usage of motors.
2: The motors are located closer to the centre of gravity making the yacht safer
and more comfortable.
3: Folding or feathering props are expensive and no longer needed because they
are lifted from the water when not in use.
4: The grounding is very limited so prop anodes will wear very slowly if at all.
5: The propellers do not corrode or attract growth decreasing its efficiency.

6

: The chance of lightning striking the yacht is less because the grounding of the

yacht is minimized.(studies learned that yachts with sail drives have a higher
chance of getting struck)
7: The silent electric motors are located in the water under the bridge deck so
noise in both the bedrooms and saloon is minimal.
8: When under power from one motor or charging with one generator while
sailing the other prop can be lifted to decrease resistance.
9: When the props are fouled with Kelp or other debris they can be cleaned very
easy, just lift them from the water open the hatch on top and clean them.
10: We use brushless maintenance free electric motors that are built to IP 68 so
they are waterproof up to 30 meters or 100 ft deep.
11: We do not have thru hull fittings or shaft drives under water so leakage is not
possible.
12: Large 3 bladed light weight slow rotating propellers have a higher efficiency
than the normally used folding or feathering props and this is possible because of
them being retractable.
13. While motoring with the generator running the fuel consumption is less then
with diesel propulsion.
13: the efficiency is better because the props are not mounted close to the hull
but at 3 ft distance.
14: the weight is substantially lower compared to the normal electric drive or
diesel propulsion.
15: The optional generator is installed on the centre of gravity with the
lightweight lithium Iron batteries, enclosed, easy to reach in a sound capsule. (47
DB at 2m)
16: the propellers are counter rotating so there is no wheel effect and it increases
efficiency because the rudders are now in line instead of counter steering the
wheel effect.
17: the propellers are mounted away from the rudders so the rudders are more
effective. ( and no vibration )
18: The space under the beds normally occupied by the engine/sail drive
combination are now empty and can be used for other purposes and a extra
buoyancy chamber is installed
19. When using the electric motors there is no exhaust smell, smoke, noise,
vibration and you do not have to fill your diesel tanks each time when you dock.
20. If you are sailing to fast you can lower the props to increase resistance and
slow down and in mean time recharge your batteries.
21. When beaching the boat you can raise the legs and there is no chance of
damage to motors or propellers.
22. The electronic controllers are seawater cooled to increase efficiency, keep the
noise and heat to a minimum and the heated water is used to preheat the water
in the water heater.
23. A water heater in 120 volts dc is included in the system to conserve more
energy so it will not be necessary to first convert to 12 volt and then to 110 or
220 ac.
24. The complete system’s weight is less then the normally used electric motor
with shaft, bearings and propeller or diesel sail drives. 70 kilo’s or 155 LBS for the
10 KW units all parts and rotary actuator included. (This compares to 40 HP
diesel power).
25. It is possible to motor sail and presetting the motors to an rpm setting, when
the speed of the boat picks up because of waves or increased wind force,
charging starts automatically.
26. A range of 5 different electric motors from 4 up to 25 KW has been developed
(20 up to 120 HP)
27. With a RS 232 connection it is possible to connect the system to your radar,
GPS or computer to monitor temperatures of the motor and controllers, motor
rpm, torque, electrical consumption.
28. The system has build in safety for overheating or stuck propellers, if
overheating occurs first the motor output is lowered, if the situation continues it
switches down until cooled.
The same is done with the controllers.
29. Maximum and minimum rpm settings can be preset in order to use the least
energy or to charge most efficiently. Charging normally starts at 120 motor rpm
and the max prop rpm is set to a little over max hull speed , for instance if hull
speed is 9 knots and it takes 900 motor rpm to reach that speed max rpm setting
is 950. It is a waste to set it any higher since 1100 rpm will only give you 0.2
knots extra speed but the consumption of watts is 30 % higher.
This system will also be offered to other yacht builders both for catamarans and
monohulls because a retractable system for monohull yachts is also developed.
It will be offered under the name “GREEN MOTION HYBRID”
We have applied for a patent on the system and it is pending.

[lufer]

Hello,

I have two questions:

1. The fan of the AC unit; is it single speed? When I change the fan
speed control manually, though it changes on the lcd panel, there is no change in the speed.

2. When outside air temperature is around 2-4 centigrades, (F 35-39)
the aft port cabin is not heated at all. The front and owners cabin
are slightly heated but still not effective? Is this normal?

Regards,

BAlamber

[lufer]

Volitan: Volitan Concept Boat Uses Wind Power and Solar Energy

Balamber

[sailvi767]

This thread has been hijacked a bit by the Africa Cat. Might be good to open up a thread on that boat. I have now talked with 3 different crews on Lagoon 420's that have chartered the boat. I won't post the comments here but they are a bit different from what owners are posting as second hand comments. I would still love to hear from a actual owner who has spent time on the boat. Details of actual performance would be great to hear. The one thing the charterers all mentioned was the very slow motoring speeds. No one said they could get more then 5 knots out of the boat at the recommended amp setting. A early review on the boat said it did 6 knots on one engine. (Other motor inop) If it did 6 on one engine it should do a lot more on two. Any actual owner comments?