420: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

[Octopus]

Originally Posted by planetoftheapes

So many negative Lagoon 420 posts, many are from me. Can the current 420 owners help me out? Will some of you post positives about this catamaran based on your experience? Time is running out for cancellation. Is there anything you can post that will help me go ahead with this purchase? The recent surprise displacement increase has put me on the edge. The payload just dropped a couple thousand pounds. It is time for the fine people that already own this boat to defend her. This is a 420 thread, so it includes the diesel version. Would the current owners recommend the diesel version? Does your silence mean you would not recommend her?

Hi Planet

I picked up my 420 on Friday and I recommend you stick with it. On Saturday we sailed, motor-sailed and motored 65 miles in very light winds (<10 knots). With some help from the tide, we hit ten knots SOG for a short time.

First impressions (and I'm trying to be objective) are that the boat is great. I'll give a more in depth report when we've fitted out and had a chance to sail her fully laden. We are hoping to cross Biscay from the UK at the end of the month.

Chris
Octopus, L420, Hull 52

[Octopus]

Originally Posted by Fielder

Whoever was still thinking about buying a L420: go to cata-lagoon.com and see the real pictures of the new design with black floor:
What did they do with the formerly nice interior? It looks cheap and tasteless. Its inacceptable...

Fielder

I would have agreed with you when I first saw the new design on my boat ten days ago, but having spent three days aboard I now think it is stylish and practical.

Chris
Octopus, L420, Hull 52

[Badgerman]

Originally Posted by planetoftheapes

So many negative Lagoon 420 posts, many are from me. Can the current 420 owners help me out? Will some of you post positives about this catamaran based on your experience? Time is running out for cancellation. Is there anything you can post that will help me go ahead with this purchase? The recent surprise displacement increase has put me on the edge. The payload just dropped a couple thousand pounds. It is time for the fine people that already own this boat to defend her. This is a 420 thread, so it includes the diesel version. Would the current owners recommend the diesel version? Does your silence mean you would not recommend her?

Go charter a lagoon 440 for a couple days and then get on a 420 hybrid.....catco has both. Bet you'll be running for the exit on the 420.

[sail2wind]

You hit 10kts in less then 10kt winds? Maybe on a Hobey Cat.

[ireaney]

Originally Posted by sail2wind

You hit 10kts in less then 10kt winds? Maybe on a Hobey Cat.

sail2wind, he said he was motor sailing, never seen a motor on a Hobey Cat.

[ireaney]

Originally Posted by sail2wind

You hit 10kts in less then 10kt winds? Maybe on a Hobey Cat.

Also hull42058 said they had help from the tide so with motors on at 7 knots and a 3 knot tide he could hit his 10 knots, I agree if he was under sail only it would be impossible for a cruising cat to acheive this.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by ireaney

Also hull42058 said they had help from the tide so with motors on at 7 knots and a 3 knot tide he could hit his 10 knots, I agree if he was under sail only it would be impossible for a cruising cat to acheive this.

HMMmm, really depend on ones opinion on what is a cruising cat though doesnt it.

I'm sure all the Aussie and NZ builders here would expect to get close to windspeed out of their cruising cats under the right angle of sail

Dave

[schoonerdog]

Roger,

It sounds from your description "how to neutralize the prop drag using the throttles" that he basically had the engines on low power the entire time so they weren't causing drag or generating power. He probably used the battery monitors to do this?

Regarding batteries I assume that they are going to be using the higher end valence tech batteries ala African Cats. Could probably reduce her weight substantially that way.

Schoonerdog

Originally Posted by Jan Dean

For all those with question marks,

I completed a four hour test sail on the on the Lagoon 420 Hybrid on August 29, 2007, off the coast of Ft. Lauderdale, FL. Winds ran from low 8 knots to 12 knots. The 420 moved along at 4.5 to 6.0 knots, averaging about 5.6.

Staley Weidman with Catamaran Yachts was at the helm and 420 was very snappy through all its manuvers. He showed us how to neutralize the prop drag using the throttles and we were very please by the overall
performance of the boat.

We've read alot of negative comments on this forum and expected to be very disappointed in the 420, but the exact oppsite was true. Here are some specifics:

1. The electric drive is very powerful. We easily maintained 6.0 knots without going to full throttle.

2. The Gen Set was so quiet that I couldn't tell when it turned on or off.
We went below when it was running and checked both the Master birth and quest birth. Anyone who would complain about the faint hum of the
generator is super sensitive. My ceiling fan over my bed makes more noise that the Gen Set!!!

3. The Gen Set cut on to recharge the batteries at one point in our cruise and ran for about 10 minutes before we hit full charge and the Gen Set automatically powered down. Information stating that the Gen Set must run for an hour every time it turn on if not correct.

4. Tacking: We had read some negative comments on the boat being sluggish through her tacks and again we were pleasantly surprised. We lost 4/10 of a knot coming through most the tacks. I believe that the 420's performance depends allot on the experience at the helm.

5. Last but not least: Batteries- Staley with the Cataraman Company told us that the next generation of batteries that will be interchangeable with
the current batteries will be extremely light and have a 8 or 9 year life expectancy.

If you have a 420 on order, give yourself a pat on the back for being brave enough to be first in line for the FUTURE!!! You are going to love it!

Roger Dean
Alpharetta, Georgia

PS - I've been sailing since 1988.

[sailvi767]

I spoke with someone who went on one of the test sails on the 420. There are a couple of things you have to keep in mind. With the electric engines it is very easy for a salesman to improve the performance of the boat. The post about tacking and only losing 4/10ths of a knot is an example. A Americas Cup boat can't tack and only lose 4/10s of a knot. The salesman was without question powering the boat through the tack with the engines. My friend noted they did that on every tack on his demo ride. You now have to ask yourself is this cheating on a demo ride or is it simply a characteristic of electric drives and should be taken advantage of and is a great benefit. The answer is perhaps a little of both. If they are running the engines to produce no drag from the props then you are using power. He noted that the salesman was always running with a little electric boost. He asked that the engines be shut off completely (No power) but they would not do that. He wanted to see how the boat performed under sail alone. Again the boat may not be meant to be used that way and perhaps that is part of the reason for the small rig. He noted the genset cycled on after about 20 minutes on the water under sail. This is what made him feel they were using more electric assist then they wanted to admit. The 420 uses a standard genset. If it only comes on for 10 minutes at a time it will not last long. Diesels hate being run for short periods of time. It will dramatically reduce the gensets life. It would be better for it to run for one hour or more. Truckers will idle their engines all night long rather then shut them down. The Moorings refuses to put inverters on their big cats in charter. Because of that every time a charterer wants AC power for the blender or microwave they start the genset and then shut it down. Gensets on Moorings boats rarely make it through 5 years of charter without having to be replaced. If this genset is cyclying on and off for 10 minutes at a time I don't think any of them will last more then 3 years. If I had a 420 in charter I would make sure to budget for a new genset at least every 4 years perhaps a lot sooner. There will be an obvious compromise between battery life and genset life. If you set the boat up to take the batteries to a deeper discharge level to minimize genset cycles then you will wear out the batteries faster. Set it up for low discharge of the batteries and you will wear out the genset. It will be interesting to see in 4 or 5 years how the batteries and genset do hold up.

On the subject of new batteries there was a good article on Lithium batteries for car use. One of the big issues is the fire hazard. After reading this article I would be very reluctant to ever put a lithium battery on a boat. Hopefully there will be other types of batteries that will appear as a better option.

[schoonerdog]

Just a quick point, the lithium ion battery used by cell phones and laptops if ramped up in power can be a fire hazard and has been a well documented issue. I believe the Valance tech batteries though have a different chemistry and use a lithium sulpher battery which has different chemical properties and is not a fire hazard. Always happy to be corrected though.

[Badgerman]

Originally Posted by sailvi767

I spoke with someone who went on one of the test sails on the 420. There are a couple of things you have to keep in mind. With the electric engines it is very easy for a salesman to improve the performance of the boat. The post about tacking and only losing 4/10ths of a knot is an example. A Americas Cup boat can't tack and only lose 4/10s of a knot. The salesman was without question powering the boat through the tack with the engines. My friend noted they did that on every tack on his demo ride. You now have to ask yourself is this cheating on a demo ride or is it simply a characteristic of electric drives and should be taken advantage of and is a great benefit. The answer is perhaps a little of both. If they are running the engines to produce no drag from the props then you are using power. He noted that the salesman was always running with a little electric boost. He asked that the engines be shut off completely (No power) but they would not do that. He wanted to see how the boat performed under sail alone. Again the boat may not be meant to be used that way and perhaps that is part of the reason for the small rig. He noted the genset cycled on after about 20 minutes on the water under sail. This is what made him feel they were using more electric assist then they wanted to admit. The 420 uses a standard genset. If it only comes on for 10 minutes at a time it will not last long. Diesels hate being run for short periods of time. It will dramatically reduce the gensets life. It would be better for it to run for one hour or more. Truckers will idle their engines all night long rather then shut them down. The Moorings refuses to put inverters on their big cats in charter. Because of that every time a charterer wants AC power for the blender or microwave they start the genset and then shut it down. Gensets on Moorings boats rarely make it through 5 years of charter without having to be replaced. If this genset is cyclying on and off for 10 minutes at a time I don't think any of them will last more then 3 years. If I had a 420 in charter I would make sure to budget for a new genset at least every 4 years perhaps a lot sooner. There will be an obvious compromise between battery life and genset life. If you set the boat up to take the batteries to a deeper discharge level to minimize genset cycles then you will wear out the batteries faster. Set it up for low discharge of the batteries and you will wear out the genset. It will be interesting to see in 4 or 5 years how the batteries and genset do hold up.

On the subject of new batteries there was a good article on Lithium batteries for car use. One of the big issues is the fire hazard. After reading this article I would be very reluctant to ever put a lithium battery on a boat. Hopefully there will be other types of batteries that will appear as a better option.

We used that trick on the tack too......throw some electric power on.....without, it was an agonizingly slow process. In fact we used the electrics alot under sail to try to improve the ride and get a reasonable speed........never got over 10 knots even with electrics........the 420 is one icky boat.
And like i said before.....look to be replacing alot of genset starters.......it gets a workout.

[Octopus]

Originally Posted by Badgerman

We used that trick on the tack too......throw some electric power on.....without, it was an agonizingly slow process. In fact we used the electrics alot under sail to try to improve the ride and get a reasonable speed........never got over 10 knots even with electrics........the 420 is one icky boat.
And like i said before.....look to be replacing alot of genset starters.......it gets a workout.

Badgerman

I find your reports of the 420 difficult to reconcile with my experience on Saturday. We sailed, motor-sailed and motored in equal proportions for a total of at least 65 miles in ten hours. The boat never felt sluggish. We were against the tide for the first hour or so and against the wind and 2.5 knot tide for the last hour or so. The tidal predictions suggest that we had up to 2.1 knots with us for two or three hours. When motoring or motor-sailing we never had the motors at more than 1/2 throttle (i.e. the 75A optimum advised by our dealer). I honestly can't remember whether we were motor-sailing or just sailing when we hit 10 knots SOG (according to the GPS) - the motors are so quiet I found myself putting my ear to the generator locker to check.

I can't help wondering if there was something amis with the 420 you sailed. I think it's too early to start bad-mouthing the performance of all 420s until we have a few other reports to go on.

Chris
L420, Hull 52, Octopus

[Badgerman]

Originally Posted by Octopus

Badgerman

I find your reports of the 420 difficult to reconcile with my experience on Saturday. We sailed, motor-sailed and motored in equal proportions for a total of at least 65 miles in ten hours. The boat never felt sluggish. We were against the tide for the first hour or so and against the wind and 2.5 knot tide for the last hour or so. The tidal predictions suggest that we had up to 2.1 knots with us for two or three hours. When motoring or motor-sailing we never had the motors at more than 1/2 throttle (i.e. the 75A optimum advised by our dealer). I honestly can't remember whether we were motor-sailing or just sailing when we hit 10 knots SOG (according to the GPS) - the motors are so quiet I found myself putting my ear to the generator locker to check.

I can't help wondering if there was something amis with the 420 you sailed. I think it's too early to start bad-mouthing the performance of all 420s until we have a few other reports to go on.

Chris
L420, Hull 52, Octopus

Sail2wind was on a totally different 420 and he had a similar experience to us on his charter.
Just be prepared for a beating when the water roughens a bit.
65 mikes in 10 hours........6.5 knots and I bet the motors were on more than off.......

Admittedly the boat is nice inside.......just a pain in the arse to sail or motor.......slow slow slow.

[ess105]

Originally Posted by Badgerman

Sail2wind was on a totally different 420 and he had a similar experience to us on his charter.
Just be prepared for a beating when the water roughens a bit.
65 mikes in 10 hours........6.5 knots and I bet the motors were on more than off.......

Admittedly the boat is nice inside.......just a pain in the arse to sail or motor.......slow slow slow.

Perhaps thats the answer. We already know there were problems with the boat on sail2winds charter which were subsequently resolved.

[Badgerman]

Originally Posted by ess105

Perhaps thats the answer. We already know there were problems with the boat on sail2winds charter which were subsequently resolved.

The problems were solved??? HOW??

Someone wave a magic wand and convert it into a Gunboat?

The hybrid system is only PART of the problem.