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Old 20-11-2006, 09:55   #136
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This big enough?

POSTED Wednesday, October 25, 2006
San Fran getting fancy solar boats to bring people to The Rock

Related Entries: Environment : Vehicles


San Francisco is ordering up a couple of eco-friendly, futuristic boats for their fleet of ferries toting fannypack-clad tourists to and from Alcatraz prison. The two trimarans will be able to tote 600 passengers apiece and will run on a combo of solar, wind, and diesel power. The boats are setting the city back $6 and $8 million bucks each and will come sporting 45-foot high wings that are covered in solar panels. The wings will also act as sails, letting the bay breeze carry the huge boats around and letting the two diesel engines take a breather. The boats should be on the water in 2008 and 2011, so make your flight plans now to be the first to ride the fancy rigs. ó Adam Frucci
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Old 20-11-2006, 09:59   #137
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Steve M.

Thanks for going to DBK and testing the panel and getting this whole solar thing going. Someone from this or the other forum should have given you some tips or advice on how to evaluate the panel before the test! From my calculations two 1875 watt hairdriers could run off a 205 Amp-hour battery (same as the 420's motor batteries)and an inverter for at least a half an hour with no solor panel input at all. So, that is why you need to monitor the voltage at the battery while the test is running; to make sure that the hairdriers are running off the panels output and not mostly off the stored battery power. Like someone stated before, the voltage at the battery should not drop during the test.

Best Regards,
Quiet Riot
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Old 21-11-2006, 03:33   #138
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Update on Problems with the 420

Quote:
Originally Posted by planetoftheapes
Iím glad that most of the 420ers are still optimistic about the problems Lagoon is clearly having with the 420 but I am not so confident. Lagoon had years to work with electric systems before this launch. The fact that the electric drives did not work at Annapolis should have us all worried.

Lagoon knows full well how important the Annapolis show is. They would have done everything in their power to have the system up and running. That is not the sort of small problem I was expecting.

The question remains: Is this the boat and systems I will trust to carry my children to distant shores? I have serious doubts and Iíve been one of the biggest supporter on these boards. The electric drive system should have been optimized long before offering the 420 for sail. Lagoon has been working with this for years.

Early drive problems will be the kiss of death for this catamaran, although I have nothing against outboard motors.

It might be time to start considering other models for our long-range cruises.
I have just spoken to my broker at Ancasta UK. The news from them is that the 420 is in full production, but glitches with the control software for the electric drive and power management are causing the delay. I am assured that there is nothing with the propulsion.

I work in the IT industry, so this news doesn't suprise me at all - particularly if the software is being written by the French . My experience with French programmers has not been good . But, really, it is so common for IT software projects to be late and not live up to expectations that we shouldn't be surprised. No traditional propulsion system would need such sophisticated software. My guess is that they thought it all worked, but real world testing proved otherwise and so they are having to undertake a substantial rewrite of the software.

The good news is that this isn't delaying production. They can load the new software as soon as they are happy with it. Meanwhile it gives them a bit of extra time to tweak some of the other things that aren't quite satisfactory.

Chris
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Old 21-11-2006, 14:50   #139
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I love the 420 otherwise

As a mechanical engineering grad, I became worried as soon as I learned what Lagoon was trying to develop in terms of the complexity of the control system. It all sounds nice, but this would be no small accomplishment. I am not sure I would believe your broker. What would you expect him to say?

So what happened in Annapolis? If they canít repair the system in the USA what will I do in Thailand or South America? Letís get real.

How much do you think it costs to develop the Toyota Prius? I would think many millions of dollars and years of development.

How can you assume this is simply a software issue? There may be bugs throughout both the soft and hardware.

I would have preferred they simply spent their time and money optimizing the Solomon system. 72 volts is low for a 20 KW system. Were talking high current draws as power = current x voltage.

I have no insider knowledge only educated speculation. Solomon designing at 144 volts was a good compromise. Someone in Lagoon management probably had the bright idea to keep the system voltage at a ďsafeĒ 72 volts and to make it charter capable with full automation. Automating system control is going to cause a lot of headaches. I would rather have Skipper monitoring and control.

This situation reminds me of that guy who spent years developing his MicroMariner control system for the Walker Wingsail trimaran. No problem building the trimaran. The wing sail worked. I believe I read an article many years ago that indicated the control system never functioned properly.

They have my deposit so I will hope for the best. I love the design otherwise. The price was certainly right. There is a high probability that Lagoon will make good on their promises.

I often consider just going cheap, small and simple. In many ways the newer Gemini catamaran is the best cat in the world. 18in draft, kick-up centerboards and rudders, fast, diesel, fits in a regular sized slip, proven.

Lagoon should let us know exactly what is going on!
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Old 22-11-2006, 19:38   #140
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Test Sail Dec 9, Hollywood, FL

Hi All,
I have been lurking and am very interested with this technology. I just received an email from Catamarans.com sending me to:
http://www.catamarans.com/news/2006/...onTestSail.asp

Join us Saturday, December 9th at Harbor Islands Marina in Hollywood, FL for an informative day of side by side comparisons, catamaran walkthroughs and test sails aboard such models as the eco-friendly Hybrid Lagoon 420, Lagoon 410-S2, Lagoon 440 and Power 43. Demos for each Lagoon catamaran begin bright and early at 9:00 AM with another run at 1:00 PM.

I hope someone can take advantage of the offer and actually get to sail the 420. Of course I am also hoping for a report.
-Don
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Old 23-11-2006, 00:42   #141
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A heavyweight?

I'm just starting the delicious process of narrowing down choices, haven't put my money down anywhere yet. I sure like the concept of hybrid powr. I just started driving a hybrid automobile and don't see why I'd ever go back to conventional powertrain again -- smooth, quiet starts, regenerative braking. And I haven't been stranded anywhere yet. (OK, I bought the all-you-can-eat warrantee and Lexus has a widespread repair network, so I'm not worrying; sadly, that will not be an option for cruising)

But I see that the spec'ed displacement for L420 is 25 000 pounds, which is heavier than any other 42' cat I've researched (cf 19 395 for FP Belieze, 15 400 (!) for AC FastCat 435, 23 150 for L440). It's not a suprise, given all the goodies installed. But how does it affect the sailing? I've read that weight is death to cats. I'd love to hear from you who have been able to sail on one, especially in sloppy seas.
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Old 23-11-2006, 06:59   #142
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New European Standards

Welcome to the board Bob. planetoftheapes provided some info a while back that helps explain this. Click here for the original post but here's the info again.

Quote:
Dear All,

Many dealers and customers have recently questioned us about the weights of our boats that do not seem in line with the weights announced by our competitors. Of course, the Lagoon catamarans are not heavier than the one from our competitors. This difference in weight comes from a new EEC rule that Lagoon follows since September 2005 in our brochures and it seems that most of our competitors do not follow this new rule yet.

In order to help you to understand, please find here after some explanations about the displacement figures under the EEC rule:
Today the rules are simple but somewhat confusing:
An empty weight does not mean anything anymore.

Manufacturers have the choice of giving what the EEC regulation call an "empty displacement", a "Light displacement" or a "maximum loaded Displacement"

(1) The Empty weight includes the following:

No equipment at all except the weight of the boat with the largest engine option

(2) The Light displacement includes:

The whole boat including all what comes in the standard (rig, sails, batteries, etc.) + a safety equipment (without life raft) + the heaviest motorisation that the boat is marketed with.

(3) The maximum loaded displacement includes:

All of the above + the whole list of options (i.e. all the options printed in the option list and that are listed without restriction (if, for instance, the option list electrical tender lift and davits, the option list must state that they are not compatible and the heaviest option must be selected for the weight estimate)) + all the tanks filled up (including grey or holding tanks) + the maximum number of crew members listed in the lowest navigation class (so if an offshore boat has 30 people classification in the D class, that is what must be taken in account).

On top of this, personal belongings for all crew, food, drinks, bed and toilet, fabrics and kitchen gears must be added. It comes to a huge number, this will never happen, but states the maximum loading capacity of the boat according to the EEC regulations.

Since September 2005, all weights indicated in our brochures are EEC weights.

So, for example,

For the Lagoon 380-S2, we have the 3 following figures :

- empty weight : 6,91 T
- light displacement : 7,26 T
- max displacement : 10,46 T

For the L410-S2 :
- light displacement : 7,52 T
- max displacement : 11,34 T

For the L440 :

- light displacement : 12,15 T
- max displacement : 18,05 T

In the mean time, our boats have changed a lot : the use of infusion (on the Lagoon 420, 470, 500, 570 and above have saved about 30% of weight in the hull and deck lamination), but in the mean time, our platform have grown in length, width, and the volume of the hulls has increased also, in order to offer more comfort inside. Also, designers have improved the hull lines performance, with a better volume distribution, a better keel line, etc.

So today, we can confirm a few facts: the average speed of the new boats is higher than the one they replace, but the top speeds are lower. In fact, the sail/displacement ratio has not changed, but the improvement in the capacity of carrying the displacement makes our new boats more high
performance.

The excellent results of the Lagoon catamarans in the last transatlantic rally ARC is the proof that the Lagoons are at least as fast as most of our competitors, if not even faster!

Please do not hesitate to spend some time explaining those width issues with your customers. If some customers are worried about the weight of our boats, please tell them to make sure that they are really comparing the EEC weight of our competitors.

The Lagoon team is at your disposal to help you on this matter, so please do not hesitate to ask.

Best regards.

The Lagoon Team.
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Old 23-11-2006, 07:47   #143
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With respect, ess105, that doesnt answer the question: in fact it makes it worse. Most Lagoon (and other manufacturers) boat displacements are shown as 'Light Displacement'. The Lagoon 420 is shown as 'Empty Displacement' - ie the LIGHTEST weight they can show!

The Lagoon 440 is quoted at 10.5T (light) on their website whereas the 420 is 14.43T (empty). So (according to the Lagoon letter quoted) you need to add rig, sails, batteries (!) onto the Lagoon 420 weight to get the 'light' weight to comapre to the 440, which is a metre longer.

Even if both weights use the same measurement, the 420 is still 40% heavier

Note the Lagoon response does not mention the 420 at all: it just tries to explain why all lagoon boats seem heavier than their competition

Its very odd.
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Old 23-11-2006, 08:50   #144
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MD

You stated that the Lagoon 420 is 14.43T (empty). My spec sheet shows the empty displacement at 24,692 lbs. and that is only 12.3T and nowhere near 40% heavier that the 440. Also, because the motor batteries are part of the "engine" of the boat, I assuming that they are included in the empty weight figure.

Quiet Riot
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Old 23-11-2006, 09:15   #145
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Moby -- I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers, but the weights listed on the Lagoon 420 specifications brochure (9/06) are: Light: 25800; Loaded: 28200; Maximum: 31800. The 440 specifications (9/06) are: Light: 23148; Loaded: 29762.

When you look at those "Light" displacement numbers, that would include, for the 420: The large genset (900 lbs) and all of those batteries (12 - 205 amp/hr, each, approx 60lb/each = 720 lbs). These are items that would not be on the 440 light displacement numbers.

While the overall length of the 440 is as you said, the 440's waterline length is only 16" greater. Although I haven't personally seen the 420 yet, everything we're hearing is that it a very spacious boat and my estimates of interior space from the layout diagrams indicate that it is only about 15 sq.ft smaller than the 440, in terms of interior space.

Of course, "weight" as measured is really sort of a moving target, anyway, depending on a number of variables. What we are really interested in is how it sails. So far, we don't have much information from sources other than Lagoon, which I take with several grains of salt, so we'll just have to see.

I share your concern, though. What we do know is that the same concern was voiced about the 440, and the 500, and both of them have turned out to be pretty good sailing boats, if you consider things like the ARC results to be a pretty good indicator, which I do considering that they were boats actually in use by owners doing passages.

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Old 23-11-2006, 09:16   #146
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Interesting. I was taking my information direct from Lagoon website.

14.43T is the figure given in the French version - which I beleive still shows the LIGHT dispalcement, (as it does not say empty - or French equivalent). The English version shows 24,692lbs as the EMPTY displacement.

That would be about right. So for equivalent benchmark (Light displacement for both) the 420 is 40% heavier. And they have tried to hide the fact by quoting empty displacement (for the 420 only) but did not change the French page.....

Or they just messed up the figures of course.
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Old 23-11-2006, 10:30   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Intentional Drifter
Moby --
Of course, "weight" as measured is really sort of a moving target, anyway, depending on a number of variables. What we are really interested in is how it sails. So far, we don't have much information from sources other than Lagoon, which I take with several grains of salt, so we'll just have to see.

I share your concern, though. What we do know is that the same concern was voiced about the 440, and the 500, and both of them have turned out to be pretty good sailing boats, if you consider things like the ARC results to be a pretty good indicator, which I do considering that they were boats actually in use by owners doing passages.

ID
I did supply my inexperienced impression (11/5/06 page 8) of a test sail done in choppy seas with 14 to 16kts winds. If you remember this email incured the wrath of a Leopard sales person or other?? Anyhow I will copy again here:

Greetings All,

Had a test sail on 'Hybrid' out of Ft. Lauderdale in 14 to 16kts winds. The boat did 8.2kts under sail only and was very smooth in very sloppy rough seas (the seas just out of Ft. Luderdale are usually quite rough with very confused seas). A Leopard 46 went out just ahead of us and we were actually catching up. Was told the Leopard 46 is fast in smooth waters and light winds but suffers from the low bridge clearance in rough seas. Nick claims he did 13kts in >20kts winds on the way down from Annapolis

Overall I still cannot get over the size of the boat. There are some small pre production problems and most of the things I asked about are on 'the list'. Did not get to experience the regeneration as Nick did not know how to use or maybe it has some problem????? The boat is extremely well layed out and far exceeds my expectations. This is some boat and will be very hard to compete with once they get it all sorted.

The Nav station stool will have three fixed positions. Apparently is not useable in the current state in anything except at anchor in calm seas.

I have some photos but are more of detail of what is under the floor panels as most of the other shots are already posted. Unfortunately I did not get to photo the forward storage spaces and they had a plie of stuff in them anyhow but there is a lot of space there.

In the large space near the owners head the space is approximately 44inches tall by approximately three??? feet wide and well over 6 feet long. I will look at this space for maybe the washer dryer ( the space designated for this in the owners head is too good to loose to the washer dryer) and a built in additional freezer or a work space or whatever but is a good large space.

The space behind the Anchor chain etc locker is also large but not quite as wide. Is where the 'Skippers' cabin goes. The two forward lockers are also quite large and in the 'Skipers Cabin' version, the Starbord locker is the 'Skipers' head. Both are good for for sails, lines etc.

The watermaker is meant to go in the space just behind the stairs on the Starboard side. There is now an option of extra water tanks and I think these go where the water maker goes on the Starboard side and ?? not too sure on the Port side. Anyhow on 'Hybrid' the water maker is not there and neither are the extra water tanks but there is oddles of space under the floor boards. Water tanks can be flexible bladders so these spaces could be utilised easily.

For the Voltaic wannabees of us; there is oddles of space on the hard binimi. Think, weight permitting, you could easily put 8 or more of the 160W BP panels up there. Once we understand the regeneration stuff, not too sure you will want to anyhow. This boat sails very well and with over 8 knots in rough seas with 14kts wind, think the advertised regeneration will provide heaps of power. If we then couple with a 4KW 72VDC to 110VAC inverter, we will have power to burn on any appliance including hot water for some time even at anchor.

'Hybrid' has the 21KVA generator and is a must. With this in mode 5, (all power to the motors and none anywhere else), for the generator operating modes, the whole generator power as being used by the motors at full power for about 7kts of boat speed. Think the smaller generators will really struggle.

Nick says the gallery is the exact same size as the L440 and there is now an option of a third sink same as in the L440.

Looked hard at the AC installations. Is Cruiseair and is 16BTU in the Sallon, 12BTU in the owners cabin and 7BTU units in each of the other cabins. The duct in the owners cabin hanging space will be changed to run under the seat and come up behind the seat. Think I will stick to doing myself and does not look too hard at all.

The holding tanks are in similar positions on the L410 and L440 so I think this is probably the optomial position. I would not bother trying to change and try to utilise the abundunt space under the floor for other things such as water maker and water storage.

And, yes, the great protusion in the owners cabin did hit me fair in the eye. I included a photo of what they did on the L440 and if Lagoon do not do similar, I will. Asked why they did not have doors on the cupboard in the owners head. Was told 'is a good question' and was because the project manager ran out of funds and was a cost saving. For finish sake only, I will put these on. What else did they skip on????????

Hybrid had problems with its electronics. Is just a symptom of being rushed for the shows I think. Again, I am now glad I opted to do my own. Anyone experienced with the RAYECH 6 software???

All in all, I could not get enough of the boat. Also looks much better in person than the photos etc. Is taller than a L440 and I could not see too much difference in size to a L440. Nick claims that the decision on a 440 or 420 will come down to the helm station - flybridge or cockpit - especially as the pricing gets closer. Sooo, our risk at the start was a good guess.

I am ready!!!!! Is it here yet???

BTW, my new hull number is 26. My boat was destined for the Miami show and as they are now going to use Hybrid for shows for some time, we all are now back in the same que. So now the hull numbers and dates make sense. Still think will slip some more. My guess is that will slip by another month at best. Think they still have a bunch of things to work out befor production?? Nick claims that they have sold over 90 boats world wide to date!!!! similar to the sales schedule on the 440 on start up.

Boat looks really good and cannot wait to get my hands on #26.
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Old 23-11-2006, 10:43   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moby Dick
Interesting. I was taking my information direct from Lagoon website.

14.43T is the figure given in the French version - which I beleive still shows the LIGHT dispalcement, (as it does not say empty - or French equivalent). The English version shows 24,692lbs as the EMPTY displacement.

That would be about right. So for equivalent benchmark (Light displacement for both) the 420 is 40% heavier. And they have tried to hide the fact by quoting empty displacement (for the 420 only) but did not change the French page.....

Or they just messed up the figures of course.
The displacements directly from the Spec Sheet given out at the Ft Lauderdale Show are:

Light 11,720kg (11.72T)/25800lbs (12.9t)
Loaded 12,800kg (12.8T)/28,200lbs (14.1t)
Max 14,435kg (14.435T)/31,800lbs (15.9t)
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Old 23-11-2006, 10:50   #149
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I.D.

I think the 205Ah batteries weight more like 130 lbs each, so that would bring the motor battery packs to about 1560 lbs for both.

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Old 23-11-2006, 11:21   #150
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Quiet Riot --

If/when we get tired of sailing, we can sell our batteries to crane companies for ballast!

Peter --

I didn't mean to consider you as a Lagoon salesman! You have one of the very few reports that isn't, and one of the reasons I have some confidence that the boat will be a reasonable sailer. If I can get 8 knts in 14 true in sloppy seas, that's good enough for me!

ID
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