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Old 30-12-2013, 08:06   #136
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Re: I'm in the ARC+ for November!

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Originally Posted by sailpower View Post
Wow, good thing Phil showed up or else you would still be offering your unsolicited opinion based on what you, although not there, assume has to be true because Wendi certainly couldn’t be relied on to accurately describe or understand what happened on her boat because…….well, only you can do that.


If you bothered to read her blog you would know that she already tried most of your Dave approved strategies except for allowing the folks who had threatened to kidnap her to "decompress" on her boat at the end which IMO is one of the more stupid internet expert comments ever.


Some of you guys, not boatman, are really full of yourselves.

Sorry , I read her blog from start to finish. I don't know about you but giving the sailing I have done, the issue of "stranger" crew is very common to me.

I jested about the knuckle sandwich, primarily because Wendi is unlikely to achieve much that way.

In the light of what happened Wendi clearly had no choice but to get them off the boat, I have never argued that, and in the circumstances anyone else would do the same

I merely made the point that in long journeys , its a very tricky procedure to eject crew rapidly from the boat. It its to be done, it should be don sonly when the boat is in the dock.

The relationship between delivery skipper and owner is very fraught and potentially troublesome. Whatever anyones says about the personalities and despite Phils comments , the vessel was brought across in trying conditions without any significant issues. Wendi herself ackownledges that , Hence the crew " did their job"

I don't know what financial arrangement Wendi arrived at, If she was paying them , then I have no issue with the " off the boat at the end " concept.

My experience is one has to be very careful not to generate "an expectation"

SO I say for example " hey join my boat , we ll go to St.lucia and maybe onto the BVI, we can decide when we get across"

Result: in my mind, Ive made no commitment, in someone else " Hey great I cross the atlantic and get a holiday in the BVI"

This is especially the case where you solicit unpaid "crew" or even where crew are paying you for their "experience".


I seen it again and again, where crew are solicited , in all good faith, by promises of things that often don't transpire, especially after the owner decides they actually don't like them really that much.

secondly at sea, allowing a situation , or for that matter, finding oneself in that situation, is potentially very very dangerous. No doubt the dynamic of that crew was that Wendi was the "junior" and they were "getting this boat across" , Hdnce the "ownership mentality that develops" . Rows that develop to this level can result in violence because at sea the social fabric that binds us is weakened. ( or changed)

Im not attacking Wendi at all, her blog is remarkably open and honest , nor did I question her honesty. Phils input is exactly like any "Alpha Dog Skipper" approach, but thats no good for Wendi. I suspect a strong male skipper would have different issues but not those. Thats just a fact of life

Theres a reason Phil likes few or no crew!.

I don't see the purpose of your attack , I have personally experienced several dramatic crew incidents at sea, especially when I was crewing, much less so when I skipper, so I am always interested in the dynamic of these situations

Quote:
stupid internet expert
If you want to trade miles, ports visited , boats sailed,crew miles, years at it or other "real life metrics" away you go matey. Ill exchange blow for blow.


what I was saying is that long distance , long time crew need a small amount of time to get over the attachment they build up with the vessel. Not for one second was I condoning the action that took place at sea. Thats a form of assault . All I said was that personally I would have ensured that situation didn't develop in the first place. Thers no clear understanding from Wendis blog, how the difference of opinion that escalated into a full scale meltdown,began.

dave
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Old 30-12-2013, 08:26   #137
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Re: I'm in the ARC+ for November!

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Lessons- Meet in person before you choose a crew. There were a lot of great people on the docks wanting to crew, a real interview would give a better feel for the choice to be made.

Everyone does react differently under pressure, and without a connection or a reason to care about each other, there is no lovin, no reason to put a little heart into it. Find people who have a connection with you, and have a reason to keep the relationship good.

Get references. Even though a crew might not give you their bad references, even a person who they think will give them a good reference will still spill the beans to protect another boat owner.
I agree meeting the crew before the off, go to dinner, socialise, is very important, I like to have them on board for several days beforehand too, because people let their guard down in time.

References are a real bum steer at times, often they indicate competence, but rarely how you will get on with them and any half baked crew will build some references , their value is very questionable. If you can go for day or overnight sail with them, thats great.

The end result is that you still end up with a virtually random outcome. A lot depends on the nature of the assigned " leader" , in your case , that aspect seems to have been very deficient in your skipper.


The "connection thing" is a little too "flower power" for me I'm afraid, most people volunteer to crew or skipper because they love sailing , not cause they love you. !. Futhermore these people are often quite strange socially , ocean sailors are not mainstream society.

If you intend to use such crew, then you have to recognise the breed and understand the issues. Again being the owner and not the skipper is a big contribution to your problems. I suspect given you experiences, you will be the skipper from now on ?.

I have sailed with very competent crew, that ended up hating each other at the end, Ive sailed with very bonded crew, and mostly you get people in the middle.

Fair winds.

dave
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Old 30-12-2013, 08:50   #138
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Re: I'm in the ARC+ for November!

Great posts Dave....

Don't get too worked up.... Although I agree with your purpose of letting somebody know that healthy discussion is OK... Attacks and criticism are not...
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Old 30-12-2013, 10:41   #139
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Re: I'm in the ARC+ for November!

Well done Wendy, you achieved your goal of completing the ARC ,hats off to you for your determination.
I totally agree with Dave, crews vary as much as boats!
I do feel the skipper / owner thing will always be a problem as ultimately there needs to be some one to make the ultimate decision and with whom the ' butt stops'
The tussle of command can often be interesting if not clearly agreed and understood by all on board, I experienced this with YM exam prep courses where the 3 or 4 students would take command at different times over a week, jumping from skipper to crew and back again it brought out some personality traits that would not have been expected, I personally found it hard to drop command when things needed sorting, it taught me to Respect others decisions as ultimately there faults were a learning curve for them and me ! The butt stopped with the instructor which put another addition to the equation.
I hope your Caribbean adventures bring the cruising and crew that you deserve with you new boat
Happy new year.
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Old 30-12-2013, 10:49   #140
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Re: I'm in the ARC+ for November!

Thanks for sharing your experience Wendi. I have definitely learned a thing or two from reading it. Congrats on the boat and ARC milestone! Enjoy your time in the islands.
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Old 30-12-2013, 14:19   #141
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Re: I'm in the ARC+ for November!

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Sorry , I read her blog from start to finish. I don't know about you but giving the sailing I have done, the issue of "stranger" crew is very common to me.

I jested about the knuckle sandwich, primarily because Wendi is unlikely to achieve much that way.

In the light of what happened Wendi clearly had no choice but to get them off the boat, I have never argued that, and in the circumstances anyone else would do the same

I merely made the point that in long journeys , its a very tricky procedure to eject crew rapidly from the boat. It its to be done, it should be don sonly when the boat is in the dock.

The relationship between delivery skipper and owner is very fraught and potentially troublesome. Whatever anyones says about the personalities and despite Phils comments , the vessel was brought across in trying conditions without any significant issues. Wendi herself ackownledges that , Hence the crew " did their job"

I don't know what financial arrangement Wendi arrived at, If she was paying them , then I have no issue with the " off the boat at the end " concept.

My experience is one has to be very careful not to generate "an expectation"

SO I say for example " hey join my boat , we ll go to St.lucia and maybe onto the BVI, we can decide when we get across"

Result: in my mind, Ive made no commitment, in someone else " Hey great I cross the atlantic and get a holiday in the BVI"

This is especially the case where you solicit unpaid "crew" or even where crew are paying you for their "experience".


I seen it again and again, where crew are solicited , in all good faith, by promises of things that often don't transpire, especially after the owner decides they actually don't like them really that much.

secondly at sea, allowing a situation , or for that matter, finding oneself in that situation, is potentially very very dangerous. No doubt the dynamic of that crew was that Wendi was the "junior" and they were "getting this boat across" , Hdnce the "ownership mentality that develops" . Rows that develop to this level can result in violence because at sea the social fabric that binds us is weakened. ( or changed)

Im not attacking Wendi at all, her blog is remarkably open and honest , nor did I question her honesty. Phils input is exactly like any "Alpha Dog Skipper" approach, but thats no good for Wendi. I suspect a strong male skipper would have different issues but not those. Thats just a fact of life

Theres a reason Phil likes few or no crew!.

I don't see the purpose of your attack , I have personally experienced several dramatic crew incidents at sea, especially when I was crewing, much less so when I skipper, so I am always interested in the dynamic of these situations


If you want to trade miles, ports visited , boats sailed,crew miles, years at it or other "real life metrics" away you go matey. Ill exchange blow for blow.


what I was saying is that long distance , long time crew need a small amount of time to get over the attachment they build up with the vessel. Not for one second was I condoning the action that took place at sea. Thats a form of assault . All I said was that personally I would have ensured that situation didn't develop in the first place. Thers no clear understanding from Wendis blog, how the difference of opinion that escalated into a full scale meltdown,began.

dave
What, you donít like unsolicited critiquing of your comments?

How strange.
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Old 30-12-2013, 21:07   #142
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Great blog and a great story well done Wendi and phil for helping make it happen. Also note it wasn't just the crossing Wendi had to make happen, it was also purchasing a boat, registering her in bvi,s (not easy) dealing with shifty gold brokers (that's another story) FBI... etc. So all in all a great outcome to arrive safely to tell the story. Jen and I are also looking forward to the book!
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Old 31-12-2013, 06:22   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailpower View Post

What, you don’t like unsolicited critiquing of your comments?

How strange.
Simply calling me an Internet expert is not a critique. Disagreeing with me requires you to advance an alternative. Otherwise it's just trolling

Debate what I said. that's fine , I enjoy that , mindless critiques do not advance the discussion. Advance your own views


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Old 31-12-2013, 06:54   #144
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Re: I'm in the ARC+ for November!

Congrats on going for it Wendi and your blog was very entertaining
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Old 31-12-2013, 09:31   #145
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Re: I'm in the ARC+ for November!

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Simply calling me an Internet expert is not a critique. Disagreeing with me requires you to advance an alternative. Otherwise it's just trolling

Debate what I said. that's fine , I enjoy that , mindless critiques do not advance the discussion. Advance your own views


Dave
It's not a question of me disagreeing with you as you are not part of her story. You are irrelevant to what she accomplished.


Advance my own views? I already did that. I congratulated Wendi on her achievement. I didn’t feel it necessary to comment on what I would have done differently or offer unsolicited opinion as to what she should have done either of which would be the actual definition of trolling.


But, as I freely admit, I am not an internet expert.


Chris
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Old 31-12-2013, 19:34   #146
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It's not a question of me disagreeing with you as you are not part of her story. You are irrelevant to what she accomplished.

Advance my own views? I already did that. I congratulated Wendi on her achievement. I didn’t feel it necessary to comment on what I would have done differently or offer unsolicited opinion as to what she should have done either of which would be the actual definition of trolling.

But, as I freely admit, I am not an internet expert.

Chris
You seem to think that such crossings , despite the serious outpouring of issues Wendi had , as documented on her blog , should be glossed over. I merely gave my opinion of that aspect of the crossing , that is the relationship she documented between herself and the skipper and crew. I offered my own insights into that , for other people and Wendi to consider and I asked her to respond with her thoughts.

I did this because after many many years of sailing other people's boats , I've seen many issues with" stranger " crew and this is one of them.

as I've said , irrespective of the issues , the Crew, including Wendi , did their job and brought the boat safety and skilfully across the Atlantic. Wendi is to be congratulated on all the things she has done in that regard.

It does not take from , however, a discussion , on the difficulties encounterd Difficulties that Wendi , herself documented on a near daily basis. ( and I congratulate her on that)

Crew hassle on the ARC , seems to be much more common , than might appear , given what I've personally observed

You have not advanced. Your views on my posts , yet you feel obliged to simply criticise me personally. That is simply an adhominen attack , nothing more. Congratulating her is admirable , but is not a contribution to a debate I started. You could have merely not responded to my postings . But no you feel you can attack me personally

I suspect you are not any form of "expert " , at sea or on the Internet

Dave
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Old 31-12-2013, 20:00   #147
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Re: I'm in the ARC+ for November!

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
You seem to think that such crossings , despite the serious outpouring of issues Wendi had , as documented on her blog , should be glossed over. I merely gave my opinion of that aspect of the crossing , that is the relationship she documented between herself and the skipper and crew. I offered my own insights into that , for other people and Wendi to consider and I asked her to respond with her thoughts.

I did this because after many many years of sailing other people's boats , I've seen many issues with" stranger " crew and this is one of them.

as I've said , irrespective of the issues , the Crew, including Wendi , did their job and brought the boat safety and skilfully across the Atlantic. Wendi is to be congratulated on all the things she has done in that regard.

It does not take from , however, a discussion , on the difficulties encounterd Difficulties that Wendi , herself documented on a near daily basis. ( and I congratulate her on that)

Crew hassle on the ARC , seems to be much more common , than might appear , given what I've personally observed

You have not advanced. Your views on my posts , yet you feel obliged to simply criticise me personally. That is simply an adhominen attack , nothing more. Congratulating her is admirable , but is not a contribution to a debate I started. You could have merely not responded to my postings . But no you feel you can attack me personally

I suspect you are not any form of "expert " , at sea or on the Internet

Dave
Dave, you keep doubling down on the value of your unsolicited critique.

The point is that nobody asked you for your opinion.


Did you not happen to notice all of the other posters who simply offered congratulations?

You feel free to jump into and bloviate on a topic unasked but view it as an attack on you when that is pointed out. Thatís kind of illogical donít you think?

Your ego must be ginormous but also fragile to continue blathering on about your sailing bona fides as if they are somehow germane to what Wendi accomplished.

What I have done in my life which is nothing great in some areas but substantial in others has nothing to do with what Wendi achieved which, of course, is why I donít use it as a basis to say anything but well done. Itís too bad that you donít get that.

I donít see much point in continuing to point out the obvious to you so, Happy New Year.

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Old 31-12-2013, 20:21   #148
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pirate Re: I'm in the ARC+ for November!

Why don't more people use Comic Sans.. is it coz it involves two more clicks before posting...??
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Old 31-12-2013, 20:42   #149
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Dave, you keep doubling down on the value of your unsolicited critique.

The point is that nobody asked you for your opinion.


Did you not happen to notice all of the other posters who simply offered congratulations?

You feel free to jump into and bloviate on a topic unasked but view it as an attack on you when that is pointed out. That’s kind of illogical don’t you think?

Your ego must be ginormous but also fragile to continue blathering on about your sailing bona fides as if they are somehow germane to what Wendi accomplished.

What I have done in my life which is nothing great in some areas but substantial in others has nothing to do with what Wendi achieved which, of course, is why I don’t use it as a basis to say anything but well done. It’s too bad that you don’t get that.

I don’t see much point in continuing to point out the obvious to you so, Happy New Year.
I debated whether to respond to this, but hey , I'm human. This is an Internet forum , topics are debated , teased out etc , little is accepted at face value. Some threads bear down hard on issues

I put forward my critique simply as my opinion , it has no value , just like anyone's , in itself. It is merely my view.

All posts are unsolicited on a forum , even where an OP. starts a particular thread , there nothing to say it should not deviate to what and where the contributors want. The OP. starts a thread , not owns the debate.

I seek no intrinsic value in my contribution , it's worth what other people make of it. They can ignore it , or debate it. You however merely criticise my making it.

What you have done or I have done is irrelevant on this forum , all we have are our posts.

I hope you see the point, which is entirely different then the one you are making

Dave
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Old 31-12-2013, 20:52   #150
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Does that mean your not into Comic Sans..??
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