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Old 25-09-2015, 06:53   #1
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How Much Can We Take?

My wife and I are planning to set off next year with our kids for a three year circumnavigation. After tons of research and multiple boats shows we have decided that one of our favorite boats is the Lagoon 420. We can get a fairly late model for a decent price because of all the ex-charter boats. We know the boat is a little slow but we love the layout and the storage space.

Now for the question: Can a family of five carry all of our crap in a Lagoon 420?

I have looked everywhere for a weight capacity and it does not seem to exist. I realize that options such as a genset, A/C, and other could affect this but I am trying to get a rough idea. Any others out there with Lagoon 420 that can give me an idea? I know that with the wider beam it should be higher than some of the faster cats but what can we expect? We will keep our crap to a minimum but with kids we need a certain amount of toys, bikes, books that we have to bring.
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Old 25-09-2015, 07:32   #2
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Re: How Much Can We Take?

According to A weighty question! | Lagoon Inside
"In fact there are 2 radically different definitions: light displacement and max loaded displacement. These terms are defined by ISO norms which are used by the European Economic Community regulations. A builder like Lagoon has to respect these norms and others like boat design EEC classification.

According the ISO 12217and ISO 866 norms (boring to read!), the light displacement refers to:
– all structural elements
– all the comfort equipment included in the standard version of the boat (as mattresses, cushions, cockpit table),
– the heaviest engines available,
– standard batteries,
electronics,
– standard deck equipment (ladder, winches, anchors chain and anchor, mast, boom, standard sails, sheets, halyards…).

According to norm ISO 14946, the max loaded displacement refers to the light displacement with in addition:
– the maximum number of persons that the boat can accept (75 kg each),
– all the extra equipment,
– the basic personal equipment,
provisioning,
– all tanks full (fuel, water and grey tanks),
Liferaft."


Lagoon gives the following at http://www.cata-lagoon.com/lagoon_anciens_420_uk.php:
for the Lagoon 420

Empty displacement 29503 lbs
Loaded displacement (EEC) 31813 lbs

Which would suggest a payload of 2310 lbs including all the items in the second list above.
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Old 25-09-2015, 07:57   #3
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Re: How Much Can We Take?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
According to A weighty question! | Lagoon Inside
"In fact there are 2 radically different definitions: light displacement and max loaded displacement. These terms are defined by ISO norms which are used by the European Economic Community regulations. A builder like Lagoon has to respect these norms and others like boat design EEC classification.

According the ISO 12217and ISO 866 norms (boring to read!), the light displacement refers to:
– all structural elements
– all the comfort equipment included in the standard version of the boat (as mattresses, cushions, cockpit table),
– the heaviest engines available,
– standard batteries,
– electronics,
– standard deck equipment (ladder, winches, anchors chain and anchor, mast, boom, standard sails, sheets, halyards…).

According to norm ISO 14946, the max loaded displacement refers to the light displacement with in addition:
– the maximum number of persons that the boat can accept (75 kg each),
– all the extra equipment,
– the basic personal equipment,
– provisioning,
– all tanks full (fuel, water and grey tanks),
– Liferaft."


Lagoon gives the following at http://www.cata-lagoon.com/lagoon_anciens_420_uk.php:
for the Lagoon 420

Empty displacement 29503 lbs
Loaded displacement (EEC) 31813 lbs

Which would suggest a payload of 2310 lbs including all the items in the second list above.
Interesting info on how they spec the boat out.. The loaded displacement would also have structural implications. Now the fun part...that allowed load is quite a bit shy of what your typical cruiser actually adds to the boat for a circumnavigation.
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Old 25-09-2015, 08:13   #4
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Re: How Much Can We Take?

From the title "420 - how much can we take", I thought this thread would be about cruising Jamaica.
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Old 25-09-2015, 08:15   #5
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pirate Re: How Much Can We Take?

Books..?
A Kindle weighs next to nothing.
Schooling..?
Download off the net..
Toys..?
Kids still have them..? I thought they were old fashioned these days.. and an X-Box weighs only as much as 3 Kindles..
You only need a coupla weeks worth of clothes.. replace as you go..
Man.. makes one wonder how folk managed in the last century without all these modern aids to an easier life..
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Old 25-09-2015, 08:22   #6
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Re: How Much Can We Take?

I'm not getting over 2310 lbs including this
– the maximum number of persons that the boat can accept (75 kg each),
– all the extra equipment,
– the basic personal equipment,
– provisioning,
– all tanks full (fuel, water and grey tanks),
– Liferaft."

If I understand, the capacity is a LOT less than I would have thought.
I have a lot more weight than that in my 38' Mono
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Old 25-09-2015, 08:33   #7
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Re: How Much Can We Take?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Interesting info on how they spec the boat out.. The loaded displacement would also have structural implications. Now the fun part...that allowed load is quite a bit shy of what your typical cruiser actually adds to the boat for a circumnavigation.
One biggie is " the maximum number of persons that the boat can accept (75 kg each)"

My similar sized Belize is rated for 20 pax in Cat D waters; there's 3300 lbs for a start. Then add another 1800 lbs or so for a full load of fuel and water. So it's about 5000 lbs before any provisioning or miscellaneous gear!

My actual max displacement is around 3000 kg or 6600 lbs over lightship,
I wonder how Lagoon comes up with their 2310?
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Old 25-09-2015, 08:36   #8
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Re: How Much Can We Take?

By the time you cast of your lines, you'll be well over the 31.8K displacement guidance but lots of cruising boats are in that same "boat" and it doesn't stop them. Yes, being overweight will affect sailing performance but with a cruising cat, that's performance with a pretty small "p." In other words, since its windward performance isn't very good anyway, you won't notice a huge difference. Off the wind or downwind the difference will be less noticeable. You'll choose your route to go downwind or on a reach as much as possible, or you'll use the diesel engines. It'll always be somewhat of a "dog" as far as sailing performance goes, but that's OK.

My bigger concern is that you say you are planning to leave next year and you don't even own your boat yet! For most people it takes a minimum of a few years to really learn their boat and to get all the systems the way you want them and to get your crew up to speed and ready to go. I think you need to buy whatever boat you feel is appropriate now(!), start sailing it very regularly with your family ASAP, while also learning and adapting the boats systems to suit your intended use of them, and put off your departure date by at least a year so you can be somewhat prepared and give yourself a reasonable chance for success. I realize that many individuals have set off to cross oceans completely unprepared and survived, but some of them were pretty lucky (Bumfuzzles) to do so and they also didn't have 3 kids on board. Good luck!
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Old 25-09-2015, 08:37   #9
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Re: How Much Can We Take?

Thanks for the replies. Now I have to add up out bikes, clothes, books, charts, dinghy, etc, etc. I feel that we will exceed 23010lbs real quickly.

Boatman61 - so far we have done our best to keep the electronics out of the hands of the kids. This means more toys and books instead of a playstation. We want the kids to understand they DON't need all of this stuff to be happy.

Curious if any owners of a 420 can respond? I would love to have some real life examples of someone that did this. We keep hearing form people to go with a smaller boat to keep costs down. Then I hear that waterline length is everything when sailing. Teh 420 seemed to be a nice in-between.
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Old 25-09-2015, 08:39   #10
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Re: How Much Can We Take?

JTSAILJT

Since we live in Georgia we have the advantage of spending the entire first year in the U.S. Southeast and Caribbean to get comfortable with the boat. We will not cross an ocean until we are sure that we are ready! We may never make it but I feel that putting it off for another year would be a mistake.
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Old 25-09-2015, 09:31   #11
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Re: How Much Can We Take?

Just a note to you Outsideworld, most of the cat cruisers I have met around the world have a common complaint about their boats, they are designed to be fast and comfortable but when you load them down with cruising gear, they say their boats become slugs, slow, wet and not responsive. But one of the reasons many people buy cats is what you describe, large spaces. Just be aware that when you fill these spaces, your nimble, relatively dry cat becomes slow and wet.

Michael
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Old 25-09-2015, 10:11   #12
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Re: How Much Can We Take?

The variable load for the lagoon 420 seems very low here is the extract from the manual for our FP Athena 38
Maximum load displacement: 7.8 t
• Maximum load: 2.470 t
(weight that can be added to the standard craft)
broken down as follows:
- water tanks - full 360 kg
- fuel tanks - full 170 kg
- 8-person crew 600 kg
- safety equipment (for 8 people) 350 kg
- provisions (2.5 kg/pers/day) 2.5*8*15=300kg
- options + miscellaneous 690 kg

Given that the Athena is much shorter with narrower hulls I suspect the quoted figure for the Lagoon is not correct at less than half that of the Athena
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Old 25-09-2015, 10:19   #13
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Re: How Much Can We Take?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsideworld View Post
JTSAILJT

Since we live in Georgia we have the advantage of spending the entire first year in the U.S. Southeast and Caribbean to get comfortable with the boat. We will not cross an ocean until we are sure that we are ready! We may never make it but I feel that putting it off for another year would be a mistake.
If that year will be spent coastal cruising and gradually working in some overnight trips as you adapt to your boat and adapt it to you, then that sounds perfect. If you're familiar with your boat, have appropriate tools, are mechanically inclined, and have a long history of being a successful do-it-yourselfer then you'll probably be able to make most of the necessary modifications/repairs yourself with the assistance of other cruisers you'll meet along the way. Once you get away from your home port where you are familiar with which mechanic is reputable and which one usually causes more problems than he solves or is a ripoff artist posing as a mechanic, you'll be at the mercy of lady luck when you need something done that you can't do yourself. That can be a big problem. As you become more familiar with your own boat and its systems you'll become more savvy and at less risk of being ripped off. Being ripped off by an incompetent or dishonest mechanic doesn't just mean a hit to your pocketbook, it also might mean finding out that a critical system is unreliable or unusable or even dangerous just when you need it most. That's why it's a good idea to take some time to seatrial things near where they can be easily repaired by someone you trust and before you really need them.

Coastal cruising the southeast and sailing the Caribbean are two entirely different animals. Lots of people envision sailing the Caribbean as being similar to an extended charter boat cruise in the protected Sir Francis Drake Channel, but the Caribbean can be a real handful if your whole crew isn't ready for it and you aren't comfortable with and knowledgeable about your boat, its weaknesses and strengths, and the same regarding your crew. All that takes time. I think it's a great thing for a family to undertake together, and nobody is ever 100% ready so that can become an excuse for waiting forever, and I'm not advocating that, but starting out prematurely can almost guarantee an equally abrupt end to what should be an amazing experience. But if you spend your whole first year cruising the southeast US before you really set out, that should really help your chances of enjoying the rest of your cruise.
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Old 25-09-2015, 10:24   #14
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Re: How Much Can We Take?

PS There should be a CE mark in a prominent postion on all EU boats which quotes the maximum payload
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Old 25-09-2015, 11:04   #15
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Re: How Much Can We Take?

I think I have found the answer. The link to the Lagoon manual for the 420 is attached with a very detailed weight breakdown showing a maximum payload of up to 4477 Kg and a max displacement of 16645 kg. Optional extras are included in this so you will have to deduct these to find out what is left for the user, the manual helpfully lists the weights of these
http://www.cata-lagoon.com/site_agen..._l420d_ang.pdf
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