Mahe 36: Rudders - Steering

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by vayacondios

Thanks Cat man do
So you took the rudder out while it was in the water no??? Did you put it back in? while in the water?

Yes and Yes

Being tiller steer I had long rudder tubes and posts, approx 4ft, so couldn't pull 'em or put 'em back in while on a trolley

Put them back in the same way, dropped rope through tube, attached to top bolt and wiggled 'em back in

[Laidback]

Only, having seen photos of the Mahi's under carriage I don't believe that that rudder can be dropped without the boat either being lifted or beached (where the tides allow at least 3 hours) then it appears that the rudder/s can be dropped into a hole/s dug in the sand below the rudder/s
Have down such work on props while beached.

[Cotemar]

vayacondios,

This is the first Rudder problem I have see on a Mahe.
The rudder post is approx 4ft. with a through bolt at the top into the steering arm.
Should have 2 white nylon bearings on the top and 1 on the bottom.

Fix it ASAP as the extra resistance will ruin your steering cables and steering gear.

In the water may be easyer as you will not have to dig trenchs under the rudders like you would have to on land.

Please take lots of pictures, so you can get reimbursed from FP for the warranty work.
Also post here or send me pictures to help others in the future.

Mark

[Cotemar]

vayacondios,

Here is some more information, if it is in fact a JP3 bearing.

JP3 Rudder Bearings – Type 1
General Characteristics
Type 1 Bearings are designed to fit boats up to 45’ in length.
– Non watertight bearings require a rudder tube for
watertight integrity.
– The rudder bearings are made with an Ertalyte knuckle
bored to the diameter of the rudder shaft and seated in
an aluminum body.
– The Ertalyte knuckles are designed to rotate around
metallic axis.
– It is necessary for all boats equipped with composite
shafts to provide a metallic sleeve.
– The aluminum bodies of the bearings are anodized to
15 microns.
– Watertight seals can be fitted on request.
– Type 1’s only require an annual cleaning with soap
and water

http://www.jp3steering.com/index.php...ype1/servicing

[Dragon Lady]

Hi vayacondios,

I think your issue is quite different to the one on my Lavezzi 40 which is a sloppy worn bearing.
I would first check your cable runs, bell cranks and bus bar for any fouling.
You should be able to access everything by removing the panels in the aft berths.
Then disconect the Auto helm actuator from the bus bar to see if it the bearings that are tight?
I have been told that the new auto helms being fitted are not a reliable as the old ones.
If that doesn't work disconect one of the bell cranks from the bus bar to see if only one bearing is tight or both of them are tight.
If it is the bearings you may be able to free them up by cleaning them out with a piece of soft plastic.
It's really sad that you can't get better support from the FP dealer.

[vayacondios]

Thanks so much Cotemar for the info, we are totally feeling overwhelmed with this kind of project. Thanks Dragon Lady for the suggestions. We have eliminated all the auto pilot and all the connections and attachments and tested separately to make sure that it was in fact the rudder post/bearings that is the problem. We also tested to see if it was just one or both, and it's both.
Interestingly, we have had the boat in a creek that is mostly fresh water during the monsoon season, and has had a tremendous run off from all the rain, so we have no growth on the bottom of the boat. It either must be some kind of corrosion or calcification in the bearings, or perhaps fine silt from all the fresh water flow. With the run off the water is very muddy with suspended particles, so maybe that has something to do with it. Unfortunately, since we are over a year... this is not a claim we can make for the warranty.
There is a diver in our area that will dive on boat, and weve toyed with the idea of trying to do this in the water, keep in mind there are crocodiles in our creek and marina, so Im sure the diver charges a premium. Probably cheaper to get lifted out. Have to make a quick trip then will be back on this project in two weeks. Will post photos and discoveries.Thanks again

[Dragon Lady]

OK sounds like you have it in hand, however I would suggest you obtain two new bearings before you haul the boat out.
They arn't that expensive from JP3 but their resonse time is a little slow.
I would recomend phoning them direct in France.
Good luck and please let us know how you go?

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Dragon Lady

I would suggest you obtain two new bearings before you haul the boat out.
They arn't that expensive from JP3 but their resonse time is a little slow.
I would recomend phoning them direct in France.
Good luck and please let us know how you go?

Why would he do that over getting bearings locally spun up in Australia?
Whats so special about them, seeing as they have possibly failed once already

I have used these guys

home - marine castings & manufacturers

Rogers and Lough Marine Engineers Home Page

Lex Baddiley Marine Engineering

But, re reading the post, crocodiles in the creek, I would think he is further north than Brisbane, so there should be a local shop who can spin up a set

[Dragon Lady]

These bearings are a spherical shape, whilst a local shop could make them the set up time would make them very expensive, at $109 Euro for a complete bearing or $33 Euro for just the inners they are in my opinion pretty cheap. True the originals failed and you could get a machine shop to make plain bronze ones, it just depends on how you feel about changing the design.

[vayacondios]

I think we are seriously considering all options, and open to changing the design. Getting lots of opinions, why not improve the things if we can, we don't want to do this every year. Im sure it will happen again, unless our bearings are just lemons! The first thing is to find out what exactly the problem is, which I doubt can be achieved without hauling out. However we don't want to be sitting on the hard at $60 a day waiting for parts from anywhere.
So... We may go with just getting replacement parts identical, have them all ready to go. The suggestion was made to have the casing reamed out to allow more space, but seems that would just junk up. What a drag, no easy answer. I do find it curious that no one else seems to have had this issue on a Mahe, so maybe ours are out of spec, or our tropical hot fresh water causes a different reaction. More will be revealed, we are committed to fixing it sooner rather than later. (By the way... Im a she) Hubby can't type.

[Dragon Lady]

Yes I understand your frustration, I work on French aircraft and they often present us with interesting challenges.
The temptation to jump in with Aussie ingenuity and redesign the obviously inferior original design can cause further problems.
We once grounded a plane for a week twice instead of once because we though we knew better than the manufacturer.
I'm not saying don't redesign the bearing, but make sure you fully understand the implications of what you are doing.
Rudder failures can have devastating consequences on boats and planes.

[cat man do]

Plenty of multi's sailing around over here with very basic rudder bearings with no issue as well

Simple is good

[Laidback]

As a another Multi-Huller I go along with Cat Man Do - I believe a replacement bearing can be designed and made with appropriate materials in Australia.
This is not rocket science! My rudder bearings (Australian designed and made)
lasted over 10 years in tropical waters
Am I correct in understanding that there is only one (1) bearing which is immersed? Is there a reason for not using a bearing, which would hold the rudder shaft without any other movement other than towards port and starboard?

[cat man do]

Mine are very uninspiring and one piece using materials that dont swell in water machined like these



Its not as if they should have high monohull loads on them, the rudder should be a small balanced blade
Its not as if they spin like a prop shaft, they get very little use in comparison

[Dragon Lady]

Yeah, I would be nice if the FP ones were that simple. They would probably work a lot better too.
With all due respect I don't know how good you are at reading engineering drawings, especially French ones, but if you look at what Cotemar posted you will see it's quite a different set up to what you have.