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Old 24-02-2014, 06:29   #271
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

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1. Would you have any reservations in using a diesel fuel tank as a cp in a direct DC connection, or would you DC isolate the line to the tank with a cap.

2. Does copper braid work or does everyone always use copper strap. Seems like braid will still have a lot of surface area (and to HF, will still 'look' like strap) but will be a lot easier to run.
I would not think it a great idea to connect the SSB tuner ground to a water or fuel tank. There isn't any need for that. Connect the SSB tuner to a convenient thru-hull with a copper foil (wider is better). Some tuners have built in DC isolation so check your particular choice to be sure. If needed then use the capacitor trick to block DC from the tuner ground.

Copper braid can work but it has higher loss than simple copper foil. Braid is not easy to terminate properly. Stick with foil for best results.
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Old 24-02-2014, 06:37   #272
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

If the fuel or water tank is not DC grounded, adding it to the RF ground may be helpful IMO. The more RF ground you have with a low resistance path back to the auto tuner, the less likely you will have RF getting into other electrics.

Another reason copper braid is not good on the boat is because it will corrode much more quickly than copper strapping.
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Old 24-02-2014, 08:37   #273
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed with pics

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The KISS is a 15ft piece of expensive wire that cannot work as advertised.

If anyone thinks the KISS can boost your signal over some other equivalent length of wire they really should get off the crack. The KISS appeals to the lazy in all of us.
Honestly, it's rants like plebian99's that makes me love the kiss even more!

3 years as a net controller talking to stations around the world, taking vessel check-ins, and being one of the Strongest Signals in the fleet. Yet...it's all not true...what I head and saw didn't actually happen...ha ha ha. I love it. You don't understand counterpoise, your are an idiot, you are not a HF Engineer, you are lazy, My kid is an honor roll student and your's isn't...did I miss any?

My boat's HF Radio, Antenna, and Ground installation was not done by some know-nothing boater looking for a lazy way out, but by some local Ham Experts that install, test and maintain many of the Winlink and Sailmail systems in the United States. Over a 3 day holiday weekend they tested multiple grounding systems from a simple through hull, the KISS, to more damn copper strap than I've ever seen all over the damn bilge. They tested 5 different antenna set-ups, three tuners on 4 radios and pretty much bounced their signals on multiple bands to friends and stations around the globe. What did they conclude in the end? They gave me their KISS that they bought for the testing and expected to toss overboard after finding it not as good as their "properly engineered counterpoise system".

That the KISS system works as advertized is great, but that it drives the HF experts crazy is just a bonus.
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Old 24-02-2014, 13:20   #274
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

No one is saying your install does not make contacts. Plebian99 used maybe too many words but the reasoning is correct. Just because someone gets good enough results does not prove a selected piece of technology is the reason. I know a lot of hams and other HF professionals. None use KISS. That it works is a good indicator how easy it is to reach long distances with HF. That's why it is has been used for about 100 years. And marine SSB is blessed with power authorization 10-20 times higher than needed. This alone explains why lots of crazy ideas "work". It also explains why self interference is such a big issue on boats.

If you want to have some fun then replace the KISS with an equivalent length, diameter and routing of soft copper tubing covered in shrink tubing. I would bet you will get the same or better result as the KISS.


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Old 24-02-2014, 13:24   #275
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

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If you want to have some fun then replace the KISS with an equivalent length, diameter and routing of soft copper tubing covered in shrink tubing. I would bet you will get the same or better result as the KISS.

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Over a 3 day holiday weekend they tested multiple grounding systems from a simple through hull, the KISS, to more damn copper strap than I've ever seen all over the damn bilge. .
Been there...tested that....kept the Kiss
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Old 24-02-2014, 19:07   #276
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

A big plus for the kiss, I have had mine for over a year and can't fault it.

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Old 24-02-2014, 21:32   #277
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Just a WAG, but the KISS is probably on average 90% of the "perfect seawater ground", therefore not a discernable difference between "Perfect" and "Good enough".
(and yes, I did look up the difference between discernable and discernible)

Flame away.
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Old 24-02-2014, 22:32   #278
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

I am with Third Day. Kiss works, and I don't care how. I have no desire to find the headwaters of the Nile. I also ran a wide copper strap to the nearest bronze thru-hull and it made no difference. Another friend using the KISS had to relay for most of the other boats in the Vic-Maui Race. Those other boats had all the conventional alchemy methods of grounds, copper, bronze plates, etc leftover from the 1940's. Perhaps it is related to your anchor choice and whether or not you have guns on board.
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Old 25-02-2014, 02:16   #279
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

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I am with Third Day. Kiss works, and I don't care how. I have no desire to find the headwaters of the Nile. I also ran a wide copper strap to the nearest bronze thru-hull and it made no difference. Another friend using the KISS had to relay for most of the other boats in the Vic-Maui Race. Those other boats had all the conventional alchemy methods of grounds, copper, bronze plates, etc leftover from the 1940's. Perhaps it is related to your anchor choice and whether or not you have guns on board.
Try and disconnect the KISS and keep the wide copper strap to your bronze thru-hull.
Please report to us if THAT made a difference?

Honestly, I am not joking nor ranting - I'm really interested in an A/B test fWIW.

Jan
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Old 25-02-2014, 03:33   #280
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Well I can't really see how it could work.
Its a bit like the GAM antenna that hooks on to your backstay...sounds good, easy to install, but will it work ?
Nope, not if your backstay is grounded...all the transmitted energy will couple with the grounded backstay and...go to ground.
On my last boat I had a sintered block on the hull for the SSB ground and an insulated backstay antenna with an Icom 710, we boomed in all over the pacific.
I have a friend with an aluminium boat (biggest ground you could imagine) and he is heard all over the world.
I think KISS it goodbye

You need a REAL ground and your not going to get it with a few feet of wire coiled in the bilge not in contact with the water.
That's my tuppency halfpenny worth

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Old 25-02-2014, 03:51   #281
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Well are you trying to combat ground loss? The answer is NO, so all you need is a RF current return right or counterpoise? A few radials and a saltwater connection will work. You did not buy a piece of wire in a hosepipe so you can spend the money that you saved on the beer in the next anchorage!
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Originally Posted by Goudurix View Post
Well you surely got that off your chest, Plebeian99!

Since I don't know how to measure my ground loss, I simply try to apply some known and low cost solutions:
- short stretch of copper tape to un underwater bronze
- 2 sets of bundled cut radials (for 40-20-17-15m) running along the inside of the toerail both sides
- tied in the lifelines and pushpit.

Easy, low cost, it works (the tuner tunes and I can make DX connections).


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Old 25-02-2014, 04:05   #282
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Hi Plebian99,

hey I wasn't picking on you!
I fully aggree!
My setup seems to work.
If I would be able to improve it (DIY) I would....
...and I do NOT believe a KISS would...

My belief is: a KISS works to help the ATU find its matches....hence help the transceiver to get power into the antenna system.
Being over saltwater any poorly or strongly radiated signal will benefit.

I would never use a KISS only.
If somebody would offer me a KISS for free I would ask for 2 of them and install them both side of my boat in a symmetrical way...
I would combine it with a wide-copper tape connection to an underwater bronze.

The KISS is a subject that provokes more buzz than the question of the gender of the angels

There is only 1 way to get out of this: setting up a real standardised experiment on a fixed raft in saltwater, and comparing several RF grounds and counterpoises... a KISS, radials, conncection to the seawater, and off course several calibrated receivers/field strength measurement equipment direct path, skip path.
Too difficult, too expensive.

Jan
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Old 25-02-2014, 04:10   #283
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed with pics

Well think about it before getting emotional. If you using a ham receiver that is calibrated. From the noise floor to a signal strength of S9, assuming 6db per S_unit. Thats 54 db of difference from being heard or not being heard. Unfortunately for your argument, no ground system buys you 54 db over seawater nor 54db when you lay 120 radials on the floor of the dessert which has the worst possible ground conductivity. So if there are such a huge signal strength differences, theres other factors that are reflecting such night and day signal strength differences. Not even switching from a dipole to yagi can buy so much signal strength jump and neither can switching from a vertical to yagi make such a big difference. So with all due respect such tales of the KISS being some kind of magic signal sucker is a load of horse manure. You should really be asking what was wrong with those other yachts SSB installations to be performing so badly. Radio propagation is not a laser beam that picks out yachts because they have a KISS ground installed. If you used calibrated field strength meters you will find that under the worst conditions switching between a truly excellent ground and very poor ground measures no more than 6db. If there is greater loss the loss has come about because the antenna has become so reactive that it has moved into the antenna tuners high loss zone. Just keep in mind that most automatic antenna tuners can tuner themselves with no antenna attached and make a 150 watt signal disappear like it was fed into a dummy load. I dont believe in the sailing tooth fairies!
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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
Honestly, it's rants like plebian99's that makes me love the kiss even more!

3 years as a net controller talking to stations around the world, taking vessel check-ins, and being one of the Strongest Signals in the fleet. Yet...it's all not true...what I head and saw didn't actually happen...ha ha ha. I love it. You don't understand counterpoise, your are an idiot, you are not a HF Engineer, you are lazy, My kid is an honor roll student and your's isn't...did I miss any?

My boat's HF Radio, Antenna, and Ground installation was not done by some know-nothing boater looking for a lazy way out, but by some local Ham Experts that install, test and maintain many of the Winlink and Sailmail systems in the United States. Over a 3 day holiday weekend they tested multiple grounding systems from a simple through hull, the KISS, to more damn copper strap than I've ever seen all over the damn bilge. They tested 5 different antenna set-ups, three tuners on 4 radios and pretty much bounced their signals on multiple bands to friends and stations around the globe. What did they conclude in the end? They gave me their KISS that they bought for the testing and expected to toss overboard after finding it not as good as their "properly engineered counterpoise system".

That the KISS system works as advertized is great, but that it drives the HF experts crazy is just a bonus.
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Old 25-02-2014, 04:40   #284
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Yes i know. You a good guy because you actually understand a very pertinent technical point. "My belief is: a KISS works to help the ATU find its matches....hence help the transceiver to get power into the antenna system.
" The typical marine auto tuner can tuner itself with no antenna attached. We you have a very poor ground and the reactance is very high. You are moving the RjX right into a high loss area for the antenna tuner. The losses sky rocket and these losses are not ground loss but I squared R losses in the matching network. Because most RF grounds on yachts are too small to be frequency neutral or span the entire operating range you tend to have many frequencies where theres more internal tuner loss or matching losses. Most of this loss comes about because of the swings in the reactance. Tuners can handle high resistance loads with little reactance well. They cant handle high R and and extreme X without loss. From this perspective having a small RF bit of thingy or wire hanging off the ground lug can be actually better than some over complicated ground system thats trying to combat some imaginary ground loss like that in the Kalahari dessert.Are we sailing boats on the dessert? We are not fighting ground loss resistance in seawater, so trying to lay down a copper mine in your bilge is an exercise in futility. Its amusing reading all these SSB RF experts preach this rubbish when the facts are clearly starring them right in the face. Now if you disconnect the KISS ground? That piece of coax that runs to the radio becomes a radial. Its carrying common mode current since its not choked off with 5000 ohms of choking impedance. All the end fed half wave wire antenna ham gurus know this fact. Sailors dont want to know about how the feedline is actually part of the antenna system. On some frequencies the KISS will help because its 15ft piece of wire in a tube. On other frequencies it might not do a darn thing. This is before we start asking the question is the antenna voltage fed or current fed. But we wont continue all these lines of thoughts. Some sailors want a piece of wire in a hose to be some kind of magic RF ground solution and thats Ok its a free world. I am just wanting to understand how all this stuff works and what actually is the reality of the situation. You will notice how we have gone from a bilge full of copper foil to the bare minimum of piece of wire akin to a 15ft radial. What amuses me is that tall tales of the signals rolling in with huge signals is exactly the same regardless if you used a stumpy piece of wire for a ground or a copper mine in the bilge. Which one is better since they both sucked the signals in? Maybe they should change the name of the KISS to the "SIGNAL SUCKER" I wont be the sucker that buys it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goudurix View Post
Hi Plebian99,

hey I wasn't picking on you!
I fully aggree!
My setup seems to work.
If I would be able to improve it (DIY) I would....
...and I do NOT believe a KISS would...

My belief is: a KISS works to help the ATU find its matches....hence help the transceiver to get power into the antenna system.
Being over saltwater any poorly or strongly radiated signal will benefit.

I would never use a KISS only.
If somebody would offer me a KISS for free I would ask for 2 of them and install them both side of my boat in a symmetrical way...
I would combine it with a wide-copper tape connection to an underwater bronze.

The KISS is a subject that provokes more buzz than the question of the gender of the angels

There is only 1 way to get out of this: setting up a real standardised experiment on a fixed raft in saltwater, and comparing several RF grounds and counterpoises... a KISS, radials, conncection to the seawater, and off course several calibrated receivers/field strength measurement equipment direct path, skip path.
Too difficult, too expensive.

Jan
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Old 25-02-2014, 04:57   #285
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

We also talking about capacitors in the ground system. I wonder how long all these capacitor last or if they are working at all. Sticking non RF current rated capacitors in the ground circuit while the antenna tuner is going from one frequency to the other is a recipe for failure. I bet if I checked all these capacitors installed this way, they will all be blown. It takes a serious capacitor with RF current and voltage ratings to handle the abuse that they will be subjected too during a tune cycle from one frequency to the other. While paralleling capacitors spreads the RF current burden it does not spread the voltage burden which can be several kilovolts. While the intention is good the proposed solution and execution has not been wisely thought about very well. Trying putting one of these recommended capacitors in series with your dummy load. Make a pactor transmission for a few minutes on a high frequency like 14 mhz and see how long that capacitor last. On a 50 ohm circuit the voltage may well be within the 300 volt rating. On a backstay antenna with an antenna tuner, the voltage will be massive and it will blow these capacitors. The capacitors you should be using is something like HEC HT58 and HT57 doorknobs or some other RF current and voltage rated capacitor. Its actually a joke that someone could recommend a "Type X7R Monolithic Ceramic capacitor, 0.15uF, $0.91 each, Digi-Key part number P4911-ND." to be installed in the ground system path with a automatic antenna tuner. Lot of poor RF science in these forums. These are the capacitors you should be using not some mickey mouse 90 cent capacitor. HH58 Series 7.5 kVDCCeramic Capacitors On High Energy Corp.
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