SSB vs HAM

[hellosailor]

"Not even sure how they would prove it."
Easy. They have monitoring equipment which can record your audio and the radio signal itself. Someone records your voice using two different licenses, and there's only one radio on your boat? Or, they record your audio while a signal monitor shows matching interference, which they confirm by testing your rig?
IIRC the FCC basically lost their enforcement budget and their field offices in the late 60's, so there's very little field enforcement today unless they are out looking for a nuisance.

The big differencer between a local traffic cop looking for smog, and the FCC checking your radio, is that in many cases smog rules are federal and the local cop has no jurisdiction over them. The EPA has jurisdiction, but like the FCC, no field enforcement teams. OTOH the FCC is responsible for enforcing their own regs, and has the authority to inspect stations and equipment--they just don't have the resources to do it on any regular basis.

As long as you are using a radio offshore, in international waters, or in some remote anchorage? The cat's away, the mice can safely play. And the cat really doesn't care, as long as they don't make a mess. Tie up at a customs' dock and start a gabfest...well...that might not work out as well.

[nolandinsight]

Ok, so we know what we are supposed to do, and we know what most folks with more common sense than money actually do. Who here personally knows someone (there must be one or two) who has crossed paths with the authorities on this issue? How did it shake out? Warning? Fine? Weekend in the pokey? And how did their paths cross in the first place? Random inspection, or maybe complaint?

I have a friend who had the FCC knock on his door, and it was the direct result of an angry neighbor who couldn't watch his new color TV he payed an arm and a leg for. I know this is on land, but the point is it took a deliberate act from another (angry) citizen to get the ball rolling.

Wondering if that formula transfers over to the water as well.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

dockhead, the answer to most of your questions becomes obvious when you put the questions in context:

. . . .
Same case for your Icom without the CE mark. The CE mark is not required for US flagged vessels even if they are operating in the EU. It is not required for US licensees. It is required for...what, perhaps installation of an EU licensed maritime radio station on an EU flagged vcessel? And that's the answer then.

Sometimes the difference between a US and an EU versioned radio is that the preset band limits are different. Or the programmed channels are different. And the mark signifies mainly that particular radio will be "safe" for appliance operators, who don't know what the limits are standards are, because they expect they have been programmed into the radio. Again, as a practical matter? If you don't commit any sins, you're not likely to be bothered about it.
You might want to confirm the model differences with Icom, and make sure that won't be a problem. Or, if the programming is just a matter of clipping a program wire, have that done, so your radio matches the operating parameters for your station license.

My vessel is UK flagged, so I am already in violation with a (literally) boat load of U.S.-market radio equipment lacking CE marks. I have no doubt about that. The vessel has a station license issued by Ofcom, and is UK flagged, so I'm screwed there. I have made a carefully considered decision to take a calculated risk with that; a large percentage of UK sailors I know use non-CE mark radios because the price difference to the States is simply outrageous. There does not seem to be any enforcement, although there is a risk that I might attract special attention if I do much ham radio from my boat

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by lorenzo b

Down here in the Caribbean, we have lots of SSB nets we use to stay in touch and get weather, and occasionally track a boat in difficulty. Nobody cares what licenses you have or what your call sign is, and everyone is polite and helpful. If you are foolish enough to state your call sign, you will very likely hear from some rude idiot telling you that you should not be on this frequency.

I'm happy for you! Life in Europe is quite a bit more regulated.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

dockhead-
As you amateur radio license, and station, are authorized by the FCC they are also governed by FCC regulations at all times, in all locations. "Part 97" includes:
"§ 97.11 Stations aboard ships or aircraft.

(a) The installation and operation of an amateur station on a ship or aircraft must be approved by the master of the ship or pilot in command of the aircraft.
(b) The station must be separate from and independent of all other radio apparatus installed on the ship or aircraft, except a common antenna may be shared with a voluntary ship radio installation. The station's transmissions must not cause interference to any other apparatus installed on the ship or aircraft."

So, in the best case, as a voluntary (not mandatory equipment) radio, you are not allowed to use the same radio for ham and marine stations. One might argue that if I unplug the mic and power cord, and plug in this other mic and power cord, I have rebuilt a station...and the practical side is (again) no harm no foul, but that's the law and you cen only write to the FCC to enquire on their feelings.

Of course, since you are operating the ham station as a guest subject to the reciprocal license and local regulation, it can only get more complicated from there.

Not to worry, I'm sure you can buy some CE stickers on eBay and apply them as needed.<VBG>

You think you have a problem? I know someone who bought a surplus State Department "ham-able" radio in the days when Canal Street and Radio Row predated the WTC. He got it home and opened it up and said, gee, what's this funny cord running all around inside?

Ah, the funny cord was primer cord, rigged to explode and destroy the radio which had been surplused from a diplomatic installation. The radio went back to the store, very quickly.

The FCC regulations are silent on the subject of primer cord and destruct charges. I'm not sure, but I think the primer cord is less to worry about than the morass of regs.

Operating under a reciprocal license on board a UK flagged ship in UK waters, I'm pretty sure FCC rules are entirely inapplicable. I'm subject to Ofcom rules and UK/EU legislation. So I believe I am actually ok about using the M802 for ham use -- I think it's actually legal for that. I think the CE mark is the rub.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Exactly; y'all should enjoy life a bit more and worry about governments and their silly rules a bit less

Ha, if only

One of the costs of living in civilization is you need to be rather careful about the rules. If you ignore them, you need to make an informed decision to do so, understanding exactly what risks you are taking. It's not like living in a tropical paradise

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I'm happy for you! Life in Europe is quite a bit more regulated.

Not really. In reality nobody cares whether your licensed , or what you use as long as don't annoy anyone.

Dave

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Not really. In reality nobody cares whether your licensed , or what you use as long as don't annoy anyone.

Dave

I don't know if I can agree with that entirely. Europe is a funny place for people who grew up in other parts of the world, like me. There are rules for bloody everything here, and much more so since the EU started to get its teeth into regulating things. People are arrested for, given enormous fines, or get sent to prison for things which are not even offenses in most other parts of the world. Enforcement varies wildly depending on what kind of rule we're talking about.

How Ofcom rules are enforced, I don't know. Google turns up numerous reports of arrests and forfeitures of equipment and even suspended jail sentences for offenses like transmitting out of band, possessing radio equipment capable of transmitting outside of the amateur frequencies, using obscenities on amateur radio, etc. So at a minimum, it is at least not true that there is no enforcement at all. If it is true that there is never any enforcement unless someone is annoyed, then this is no comfort. That's like saying there's no enforcement of drunk driving laws unless you are involved in an accident or get pulled over for a random check. You never know when you might be inadvertently interfering with someone's telly.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't know if I can agree with that entirely. Europe is a funny place for people who grew up in other parts of the world, like me. There are rules for bloody everything here, and much more so since the EU started to get its teeth into regulating things. People are arrested for, given enormous fines, or get sent to prison for things which are not even offenses in most other parts of the world. Enforcement varies wildly depending on what kind of rule we're talking about.

How Ofcom rules are enforced, I don't know. Google turns up numerous reports of arrests and forfeitures of equipment and even suspended jail sentences for offenses like transmitting out of band, possessing radio equipment capable of transmitting outside of the amateur frequencies, using obscenities on amateur radio, etc. So at a minimum, it is at least not true that there is no enforcement at all. If it is true that there is never any enforcement unless someone is annoyed, then this is no comfort. That's like saying there's no enforcement of drunk driving laws unless you are involved in an accident or get pulled over for a random check. You never know when you might be inadvertently interfering with someone's telly.

Actually Dockhead, having lived in the US , it is by far a more regulated state then any European state. Americans tend to police their regulations too. Equally we have little bureaucracy compared to the US and the UK is probably the most officious state in the EU.

The fact is Dockhead , in the UK, there are very large percentages of boaters with VHFs that aren't licensed at all, the situation is even worse in other European countries. You will notice for example that CG radio stations will not demand call signs from you etc. you yourself are an example of the situation that large quantities of US marked radios are imported into the UK without any actual over sight , this has being going on for years. Equally look at the remarkable lack of paperwork associated with boating in the UK. Consider the oft repeated critics of CG boardings in the US and then look at European sailors equivalent ,( which is virtually never )

In general transgressions that are punished are usually a result of sustained annoyance or where activity is deliberate. Conscientious operators observing the operations etiquette will not attract attention or inspection.

So this discussion is amusing and theoretical and like many things on CF , its an angels on the head of a pin debate.

Dave

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Actually Dockhead, having lived in the US , it is by far a more regulated state then any European state. Americans tend to police their regulations too. Equally we have little bureaucracy compared to the US and the UK is probably the most officious state in the EU.

The fact is Dockhead , in the UK, there are very large percentages of boaters with VHFs that aren't licensed at all, the situation is even worse in other European countries. You will notice for example that CG radio stations will not demand call signs from you etc. you yourself are an example of the situation that large quantities of US marked radios are imported into the UK without any actual over sight , this has being going on for years. Equally look at the remarkable lack of paperwork associated with boating in the UK. Consider the oft repeated critics of CG boardings in the US and then look at European sailors equivalent ,( which is virtually never )

In general transgressions that are punished are usually a result of sustained annoyance or where activity is deliberate. Conscientious operators observing the operations etiquette will not attract attention or inspection.

So this discussion is amusing and theoretical and like many things on CF , its an angels on the head of a pin debate.

Dave

The US is very, very far from a libertarian paradise (ha, ha), and certainly has some of the most annoying bureaucrats in the world, but it is factually incorrect to say that the US is more regulated than Europe, much less far more regulated. This can be measured (someone did; I forgot who). The EU in fact has taken regulation to new heights unknown even to the Byzantines. The US has a different problem, which is pernicious effects of the tort system, which is amazingly pervasive, deeply influencing all kinds of social and economic behavior through the fear of being sued. Europe does not (yet) have that, thank God. But regulation in the US doesn't hold a candle to Europe.

The total lack of regulation (and taxation) of boating in the UK is a unique case and totally out of character, originating I guess from some kind of sacred and untouchable ancient right of British people to go to the sea. I absolutely love this; it will be hard for me to live and boat anyplace else after experiencing this marvelous freedom (for this and many other reasons, the UK is actually a boater's paradise, if only you're not overly addicted to warm and sunny weather ). But in no other respect is life in the UK or Europe like this; it is totally out of character. Don't get me wrong; I think Europe is the best place in the world to live, and I don't intend ever living anywhere else (unless I'm bumming around the world on my boat), and don't ever plan to go back to the US (unless it's on my boat), but like every place Europe has its own problems, and overregulation is surely one of the most serious of these. It's a place where you do really need to take care to know the rules which govern whatever it is you are proposing to do, and if you do decide to violate them, that decision should never be taken lightly.

[goboatingnow]

Having setup a company and bought properly in the US, I can categorically say the US is far more regulated then Europe. Boating in the majority of European countries has very light touch regulations too. ( us English speakers see the language barriers as making things difficult , but for local natives things are a lot easier ) , for example take one of the most prolific boat countries , France , again while their is some associated paperwork , primarily around mandatory registration , its not complex and on water enforcement is very low.

In the US most things not specified are illegal ,in Europe far less attention is paid to petty laws and European rulings, a concept the Brits need to learn , being one of the most if not the most zealous implementers of Brussels rules and regs. ( Maybe with the US & UK its an Anglo Saxon thing !) Which given the current Euro- skepticism is very ironic. ( by the way the RCD for boats was a Brit idea , thanks guys)

In my experience the US has acres of laws and regulations , but its has zillions of enforcers , Europe has loads of regulations but virtually pathetic enforcement. ( you think that's not a national EU characteristic ! ) I've made tax returns in the US, UK, Ireland, France , Spain and Italy in my time , I know which one I never ever considered cheating on !!!

I think you are falling into the trap of reading rules in an American way , ie enforced and implemented quite rigorously. Try putting yourself into , say, an Italian mindset.

Getting back to the subject , I have never heard of a serious radio enforcement being carried out against any leisure user, that wasn't deliberately acting the maggot . Ofcom will only investigate on a complaint, so don't get " shopped"


Of course Europe has far more regulation around certain social protections, healthcare etc and of course food quality etc , but that's by design.

My brother works for a major US Pharma company based in Europe , ask him about the FDA and regulation compared to Europe !!!!!!

I've worked in aerospace , military and automotive sectors , the US again is terribly over regulated in product certification and regulation in some of these areas. Liability laws , Lemon laws , etc etc.

Then don't start me on US labour laws , unions et al.


Have a look at where the US comes on economic freedom indexes , 10th , behind Denmark !


Dave

[zboss]

They should just include the cost of the FCC license in the SSB at time of sale of the equipment and be done with it.

[s/v Jedi]

Show me one, a single one, report of anybody in Europe or USA being arrested or fined for having a SSB radio that is opened up for HAM and I'll start believing in it. There is no such report.

Key is to get the paperwork in order, make sure you have a marine SSB and VHF that are legal in your country of registration. That's it, you're good. There is no more details involved; you have the licenses and the proper radios.

Except when you start calling for revolution, anarchy or obscene language, yes they will come to shut you up.

I know Ofcom because of my old profession and I can confirm that they are a bunch of idiots like nothing else.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Show me one, a single one, report of anybody in Europe or USA being arrested or fined for having a SSB radio that is opened up for HAM and I'll start believing in it. There is no such report.

Key is to get the paperwork in order, make sure you have a marine SSB and VHF that are legal in your country of registration. That's it, you're good. There is no more details involved; you have the licenses and the proper radios.

Except when you start calling for revolution, anarchy or obscene language, yes they will come to shut you up.

I know Ofcom because of my old profession and I can confirm that they are a bunch of idiots like nothing else.

Absolutly , couldnt agree more, if you have your licenses, no one cares a toss about the actual kit. and yes +1 on Ofcom.

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by zboss

They should just include the cost of the FCC license in the SSB at time of sale of the equipment and be done with it.

No I disagree, The US actually needs to educate its radio leisure users on GMDSS, the correct protocols around DSC Alerts ( Distress, Urgency, and Safety), mayday relay DSC procedure and the organisation under GMDSS of marine rescue, AMVER, Sart usage, EPIRBs etc.

This is even more important for MF/HF and DSC usage therein. ( due to the reach of HF DSC radios and the complexity of DSC on 4 emergency frequencies)

There is a shocking lack of understanding amongst US boaters as to how radio usage fits into the overall scheme of things,( ie GMDSS) how DSC is meant to be used ,etc etc

Commercial operators are required to do it, why not leisure boaters

European regulators dont view licensing as a way of controlling VHF ( or MF/HF),they have long since given up worrying about unlicensed operators, they see it as a way of imparting a standardised knowledge of how the whole GMDSS system works. Radio usage only takes up less then 50% of the syllabus.

You can see it here on CF, there is virtually no clear understanding of how GMDSS works in the US ( via Rescue 21) even less when you look at MF/HF operations. Thats storing up trouble for the future.

Given the zeal that the US applies in regulating other areas, I can't see why it shouldnt have a mandatory radio course and from that get a ships license and MMSI. As a secondary issue they, the FCC need to abandon the stupid idea of in effect giving out national MMSI numbers which are not internationally registered. Other countries with arguably far greater sailing percentages can do it.

IN my case case I did a SRC ( part 1&2)( VHF) , ROC( Commercial VHF) , LRC( MF/HF) and GOC( Kitchen Sink) , and HAM radio certs over a few years, I found it all very interesting, imparted useful knowledge and whiled away a couple of dark winter nights with like minded individuals. ( The GOC was different, a good bit harder and its a commercial course)


Amateur Radio users in the US have no problem going through a mandatory certification process, its even a bit of a badge of honour, witness the "no code" debates a few years ago, So why not boat owners that want a ship( boat) radio license. With a registered international callsign, comes responsibility and an associated knowledge.

Dave