Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-08-2014, 15:56   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 126
Re: SSB Stopped Working

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
cburger,
I'm glad to read that you've got things figured out and working....
As for your RF ground connection....
1) In general, 0.022" thick strapping is difficult to work with, difficult to bend/lay-in-place, etc., but it is what I use...(I'm not a masochist, but I'm sort-of a radio nut, so I put up with the difficulties....
(oh, and I use 6" wide, 8' long piece for my primary RF ground connection from my tuner to my two Dynaplates....and a very short piece of 3" wide strapping attaching my metal tanks....and a long piece of 3" strapping running forward to the aft keel bolt....but, remember I'm a fanatic, and it's doubtful most would spend the time/effort/money to gain the minor improvements that might be gained with these additions...)



2) So with that in mind, you'd probably do okay with the 0.012" thick strapping....BUT..
But, please paint it / coat it, so it lasts a long time (decades)....remember, would you just lay a bare copper wire in your bilge and expect it to last a long time???
(remember to remove the paint/coating at the ends where you're making the connections....sandpaper and 3M scotchbrite works good, to get the copper nice and clean/shinny....oh, and don't forget the Penatrox-A conductive grease to weatherproof your strapping connections...)


3) Understand the "thickness" of the strapping does NOT effect its performance / effectiveness as a low inductance rf ground connection....it is its "width" (overall surface area) that makes it a low inductance RF ground connection....
So, if you can fit a 3" wide strapping, go with that...if you cannot fit anything wider than a 2" wide strapping, then use that...




4) There are entire books written on antenna grounds / RF grounds, etc....and I will not even attempt to go into these details here...but, El Rubio mentions something here that I think should be expanded on / explained...
This is true, but when using a wide copper strap from the remote tuner to a direct sea water connection (which is what we are talking about here), it is the SEA WATER that we are using as our antenna ground / RF ground....the copper strapping is the low inductance connection TO the sea water, the copper strapping is not designed to BE the antenna ground / RF ground, but rather just the connection TO the sea water / antenna ground....(assuming the strapping is short, < 8' or so, it does this well...)

Although ANYTHING that conducts RF connected to the tuner's ground lug will allow RF antenna return currents to be better returned / circulated, reducing the RF resistance / inductance as close to the tuner's ground lug (base of the antenna) as possible improves this....hence why copper is used (it's a great conductor of RF)....
And, unless you can rig multiple, symmetrical, tuned radials above ground potential, using the Sea Water as your antenna ground / RF ground is typically going to be the best overall wideband/multiband antenna RF ground....and using wide copper strapping to connect to the sea water is best, and also can contribute some to better rf antenna return currents....


As I wrote above, entire books have been written on these subjects.....but I just wanted to clarify why copper strapping is recommended when using the sea water as your rf ground / antenna ground...


Oh BTW, you can also add large metal tanks, lead keels, metal toerails, pushpits, lifelines, etc. into your rf ground / antenna ground....and typically will have no harmful effects to your system....and this is typically a very good second choice for those who do not have a decent underwater metal for connecting to....(and is what some with sisterships to mine have done, as some have not installed Dynaplates as I have....due to our boats using Marelon thru-hulls...)





5) Braid is NEVER recommended....Uncovered braid is never used as an RF conductor....
Both because of easy-to-see corrosion issues, and also primarily because of issues with the small wires making/breaking contact and causing significant noise in receiving systems, and LOTS of transmit RFI issues...
This should NEVER be used on-board....






I hope this helps..

fair winds...

John
s/v Annie Laurie

I disagree with the statement that braided wire is never recommended for rf ground connections. Maybe i wasn't specifically clear, but braided ground wire to me is flat and tinned. For rf ground leads to the counterpoise, tinned flat braid is a much better choice than standard wire. Tinned wire shouldn't develop corrosion issues or the interm0d problems caused by that. In many cases, the strength and flexibilty make it an ideal choice for this purpose.
__________________

__________________
El Rubio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2014, 16:54   #17
Registered User
 
cburger's Avatar

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Nyack, NY
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 1,546
Images: 1
Re: SSB Stopped Working

I would be running the copper strap to a Dynaplate, boat has been in the water for three years and don't know the condition of it. Are there any thoughts on using the KISS device versus what I am considering?
__________________

__________________
"All men are created equal, some are just more equal than others"
cburger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2014, 19:30   #18
Registered User
 
transmitterdan's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: Valiant 42
Posts: 4,016
Re: SSB Stopped Working

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Rubio View Post
I disagree with the statement that braided wire is never recommended for rf ground connections. Maybe i wasn't specifically clear, but braided ground wire to me is flat and tinned. For rf ground leads to the counterpoise, tinned flat braid is a much better choice than standard wire. Tinned wire shouldn't develop corrosion issues or the interm0d problems caused by that. In many cases, the strength and flexibilty make it an ideal choice for this purpose.

Flat braid is inferior to simple flat copper strap/foil. Tinning does not help. Every little wire that touches another wire causes heat loss which can add up to significant losses. Use the simpler copper strap 3 inches or wider if possible. Paint it to make it last longer.
__________________
transmitterdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2014, 19:33   #19
Registered User
 
transmitterdan's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: Valiant 42
Posts: 4,016
Re: SSB Stopped Working

Quote:
Originally Posted by cburger View Post
I would be running the copper strap to a Dynaplate, boat has been in the water for three years and don't know the condition of it. Are there any thoughts on using the KISS device versus what I am considering?

The dynaplate is probably fine. If it's close to the tuner use it. If there is a through hull closer to the tuner run another strap to it too. After that you are gilding the lily.

KISS relies on voodoo IMO.
__________________
transmitterdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 12:50   #20
Registered User
 
ka4wja's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 2,033
Re: SSB Stopped Working

cburger,
Please remember that "anything" and "everything" that conducts electricity will work as an HF antenna (and/or ground system), to some extent....even vertical/backstay antennas without any ground/counterpoise at all, will work (and I have used them successfully, but do not recommend it)...
It's all a matter of degree (i.e. how well do they work....compared to how much money/effort is put into it...compared to how well you require the system to perform...)

I'm not sure what the issue is???
You already have a Dynaplate installed on the boat....use it and you'll be fine...(and as Dan wrote, if you wish to connect a nearby thru-hull, that's fine as well.....and if you wish to go further, connecting keel, metal tanks, etc. and/or lifelines, toerails, stanchions, pushpits, etc. you may find you're wasting time/effort/money, for little if any, gain....)


As for the KISS....
Quote:
Originally Posted by cburger View Post
Are there any thoughts on using the KISS device versus what I am considering?
I gave up arguing about this product here on Cruiser's Forum, a couple years ago....
But, should you wish to read/see some details of real-world and scientific tests and/or read some experienced user opinions....please have a look at these sites...

Re: KISS-SSB Counterpoise


And, the FAQ section of the Sailmail Primer...
SailMail Primer Asked Questions, Tips, and Trivia

SailMail Primer




Regarding the Dynaplate's condition.....they'll last forever....
Just clean it off at the same time you do your prop and shaft...
(and if you're still in NY, get in the water before summer ends, and clean the whole bottom, including scrapping the prop, shaft, and Dynaplate...)




Fair winds....

John
s/v Annie Laurie
__________________

__________________
ka4wja is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ssb

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hour Meters Have Stopped Working on Both 4JH4AE Yanmar Displays impi Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 54 24-06-2017 21:50
Solar Boost 200E Stopped Working MarkJ Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 33 07-07-2016 14:17
iPad App Stopped Working ? surfingminniwinni Forum Tech Support & Site Help 31 09-02-2013 23:41
Depth Sounder Stopped Working impi Marine Electronics 5 12-04-2012 15:33
HELP! My Toilet Pump Stopped Working lorenzo b Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 10 22-02-2010 07:28



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:14.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.