Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-01-2016, 07:05   #16
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
Re: Recommended SWR Meter for SSB - Panel Meter?

Sorry, but I gotta disagree with that.

I find a cross-needle power/swr meter to be an extremely useful tool to put and leave permanently inline on virtually ANY radio installation. In my home shack I have a really big one installed and it has come in handy many times.

Whenever possible, I try to install a good cross-needle power/swr meter (like the Daiwa CN-101L) on customer's boat installations.Why?

1. It gives a quick visual indication of the performance of the entire antenna/ground system. If something is amiss, you'll see it instantly.

2. On boats, things rarely stay the same. With the hostile wet and salt-laden environment, surface corrosion is at work constantly. So is vibration, and varying heat and cold conditions. And external conditions: rain, snow, sleet, etc. All of these can affect the integrity of the antenna system: the coax from radio to tuner, the feedline between tuner and antenna, connections to the antenna, tuner, control lines, etc.

3. It gives you an instant visual indication if the tuner suddenly stops working properly, either because it has an internal problem (which happens more often these days than it should) or because something in the entire system has changed.

4. It's comforting to see things are working as they should as you transmit either voice or digital modes.

5. It avoids long disruptive tuneups and unnecessary requests for a radio check. All that's necessary is to press the mic button and quickly blow softly across the mic, while watching to see that:

- the left-hand power needle deflects as it should; and
- the right-hand swr needle stays put, or moves just a bit as it should.

This takes 2-3 seconds to verify that all is well.

The ubiquitous Icom M-802 has no proper SWR indication, and will not tell you much.

6. It is a critical tool when troubleshooting a radio installation, helping to pinpoint problems as they occur. No more guessing about this and that.

7. It helps to reduce long and ridiculous posts on discussion boards, because a very basic radio troubleshooting tool isn't available.

Bill
WA6CCA
__________________

__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 08:57   #17
Marine Service Provider
 
Scott Berg's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Aboard
Boat: Seaton 60' Ketch
Posts: 959
Re: Recommended SWR Meter for SSB - Panel Meter?

What Bill said... And as noted several posts ago, the meter he asked for is the Ameritro, a cross needle bulkhead mounted one...



Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________

__________________
Scott Berg
WAĜLSS
SV CHARDONNAY
Scott Berg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 18:00   #18
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Recommended SWR Meter for SSB - Panel Meter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
No, there is no SWR meter between the tuner and antenna. The output bolt of the tuner is where the antenna starts.

Thank you. I had that totally backwards in my reading. Now I have gone back and looked properly I see that you are right.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
http://www.swansonsailor.id.au
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 11:40   #19
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 12
Re: Recommended SWR Meter for SSB - Panel Meter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomisfarms View Post
Check out this site, hope it helps, good luck.MFJ-822 and MFJ-842 SWR Meter

Fair Winds
Haha thanks--I ordered this one and it arrived broken Super flimsy design, so I'll not re-order this one. I have highest hopes for the Daiwa CN-410M that should arrive in ~2 weeks (I found that on Italy's eBay, of all places). Shall keep you all posted. Thanks!

Mark
__________________
seegem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 11:46   #20
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 12
Re: Recommended SWR Meter for SSB - Panel Meter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trifan View Post
Cannot imagine why one would want an SWR meter panel mounted for an HF rig. Other than the "Hey, look! Ain't that cool" aspect of seeing a needle flop around when you are talking, it's not a very useful piece of equipment. Now, having one available to actually check the antenna at the antenna is a useful tool. IMHO, of course. Unless the feedline is not being used as feedline and is part of the actual radiating element, then the SWR reading at the transmitter is problematic at best. I have actually made a forward/reflected power meter, remotely mounted at the antenna with the meter leads brought back into the shack and connected to a meter through a "For/Rev" switch. That was a useful tool. Didn't show SWR but it could be calculated easily enough.
With respect, I completely disagree. Case in point: I needed to know if my rig was transmitting with any noticeable power, if my tuner was working (it's a black box), and if my antenna at the back stay was receiving any noticeable power. All of these things are blind with the ICOM 802 and the AT140 auto tuner. A meter is as much a neato gadget as it is a diagnostics tool for a complex system. I needed to tear the entire system apart, and use an external SWR meter (inline) to uncover not one but three separate problems, and out at sea I could have done this with a built in SWR meter. its like having a temperature gauge on the engine (versus an over-temp light). Its data that you need when diagnosing strange/complex problems.
__________________
seegem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 11:47   #21
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 12
Re: Recommended SWR Meter for SSB - Panel Meter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
Sorry, but I gotta disagree with that.

I find a cross-needle power/swr meter to be an extremely useful tool to put and leave permanently inline on virtually ANY radio installation. In my home shack I have a really big one installed and it has come in handy many times.

Whenever possible, I try to install a good cross-needle power/swr meter (like the Daiwa CN-101L) on customer's boat installations.Why?

1. It gives a quick visual indication of the performance of the entire antenna/ground system. If something is amiss, you'll see it instantly.

2. On boats, things rarely stay the same. With the hostile wet and salt-laden environment, surface corrosion is at work constantly. So is vibration, and varying heat and cold conditions. And external conditions: rain, snow, sleet, etc. All of these can affect the integrity of the antenna system: the coax from radio to tuner, the feedline between tuner and antenna, connections to the antenna, tuner, control lines, etc.

3. It gives you an instant visual indication if the tuner suddenly stops working properly, either because it has an internal problem (which happens more often these days than it should) or because something in the entire system has changed.

4. It's comforting to see things are working as they should as you transmit either voice or digital modes.

5. It avoids long disruptive tuneups and unnecessary requests for a radio check. All that's necessary is to press the mic button and quickly blow softly across the mic, while watching to see that:

- the left-hand power needle deflects as it should; and
- the right-hand swr needle stays put, or moves just a bit as it should.

This takes 2-3 seconds to verify that all is well.

The ubiquitous Icom M-802 has no proper SWR indication, and will not tell you much.

6. It is a critical tool when troubleshooting a radio installation, helping to pinpoint problems as they occur. No more guessing about this and that.

7. It helps to reduce long and ridiculous posts on discussion boards, because a very basic radio troubleshooting tool isn't available.

Bill
WA6CCA


1,000% agree, as was demonstrated with my rig last week.

Mark
KK6ZNS
__________________
seegem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 16:17   #22
Registered User
 
ka4wja's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 2,033
Re: Recommended SWR Meter for SSB - Panel Meter?

Mark,
Sorry I'm coming in here late, and I see you have already
ordered an MFJ meter (REALLY SORRY about that!!)

Personally, I highly recommended a Daiwa CN-801!!!
(it's the same width and depth of the CN-101, and only 2" taller....but a nicer meter overall...and VERY easy to read!!)
Products | DAIWA Ham Radio

Daiwa CN-801 Professional Series Bench Meters CN-801HP - Free Shipping on Most Orders Over $99 at DX Engineering







But, I do hope I can help you further / in the future, AND help others here (especially those that may not have easy access to shipping/delivery services, i.e. out cruising...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by seegem View Post
Hi, I'm looking for an SWR meter for my HF radio; one that I can panel mount directly to the wall. The Daiwa CN-410M was perfect for this, but is out of production for years, and I can't seem to find any on eBay. Does anyone have any recommendations? (Not that it matters but I'm using an ICOM M802). Thanks!

Mark
KK6ZNS
I respect and agree with Bill and Scott, an external power/swr meter is always a good thing!!

And, I agree with all the reasons that Bill stated!!
But...(sorry guys)...

But, with respect, I'd like to clarify a few things...

Fact is, the M-802 actually DOES have power output metering AND a high-swr indicator (as all other Icom HF Marine transceivers have had for > 20 years)...
No, it does not read-out the exact wattage number on a display, nor is there any numerical swr indication...but...

---- But, the M-802 (as well as other Icom HF Marine rigs) does have an 8-segment bar-graph display that is surprisingly fairly linear, and accurate....
(AND in the M-802, at least, the LED bar-graph is fast enough to show as a "peak-reading" display, so that it does follow normal speech fairly well, and therefore is actually a darn good indication of the radio's actual "SSB Talk Power", i.e. whether the M-802's DSP Speech Compressor is On or Off, as well as how "loud" your audio is on-the-air...
And, except for the fact that I know how my Daiwa CN-410 "average-reading" meter should read under normal voice, the M-802's internal meter is better for showing the voice peaks!)

It illuminates one segment for every 15 - 20 watts of output power...

All 8 segments = full output - 140 - 150 watts
This should be seen when full carrier is transmitted, such as when pressing the microphone PTT button in "FSK" mode, or when transmitting a CW carrier....and also, 7 - 8 segments should be illuminated when you whistle into/across the microphone in "SSB" mode...

In CW or FSK modes:
1 - 2 segments = 10 - 20 watts = "tune power"
1 - 2 segments = 15 - 20 watts = "low power"
~ 4 segments = 60 watts = "med power"
8 segments = 140 - 140 watts = "hi power"

In SSB mode, the exact number of segments illuminating when speaking normally will vary, depending on 3 things:
a) Whether the M-802's internal DSP Speech Compressor is turned On or Off...
(If it is On, you will see approx. 7-8 segments on voice peaks, and typically 4 - 5 segments on normal speech....
If it is Off, you will see 4 - 5 segments, at most, on voice peaks, and typically only 1 - 3 segments on normal speech)

b) Exactly where you place the microphone...
(1" to 2" away from your mouth, and speak directly into the small electret mic element opening, is best...)

c) Your exact voice..
(some talk louder, and annunciate well, some don't....and typically women have a better SSB voice than men do!!)



---- As for an SWR indicator....well, Bill is quite correct...here all marine radios fall short....but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
The ubiquitous Icom M-802 has no proper SWR indication, and will not tell you much.
But, the M-802 (like other Icom HF Marine rigs in the past 20+ years), does have an "hi-SWR" indicator...
The display that normally shows "TUNE" will flash "SWR" when the swr reaches approx. 1.7:1 to 1.8:1, and "SWR" will stay illuminated if the swr is 2:1 or higher...

Also, the M-802 (like all other modern solid-state HF radios), will reduce its output power when presented with a high SWR....this is known colloquially, as "SWR Fold-back"....
And, while I don't the exact specs at my finger tips, I do know that at 2:1 SWR, the M-802 will fold-back to approx. 110 watts....and at 3:1, will fold-back to less than 50 watts...and at much higher SWR's (such as when you have a tuner failure, etc.) the M-802 will only output approx. 20 watts...


So...
---- if you know the amount of power your radio outputs based on how many segments of the display are illuminated...
---- and you understand the radio will indicate when an SWR of 1.7:1 is reached (by "SWR" flashing) and when an SWR of 2:1 or higher is reached (by "SWR" staying illuminated)...
---- and you understand the radio's SWR-Fold-back specs....
Then...

Then, you can certainly make simple "proof-of-performance" tests, and do basic RF troubleshooting...all without any external power/swr meter!!

Again, this is NOT as good as having a real external power/swr meter, but all of the pertinent info is right there for you!!
The REAL problem here is that Icom does not have this detailed info in their owners manuals!!!
And, unless / until, many of my fellow radio nuts pass this on to as many sailors as possible, then few sailors will know all of this!!!

So, I do hope this helps!!!




Now, BTW, since I do have a Daiwa CN-410 HF Power/SWR meter (as well as a CN-465 VHF Power/SWR meter), panel-mounted on-board....and I do like having them there, always showing what's going on...I thought my words here might have some impact...

Please have a look...









I hope this helps...

fair winds..

John
__________________
John, KA4WJA
s/v Annie Laurie, WDB6927
MMSI# 366933110
ka4wja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 18:27   #23
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Recommended SWR Meter for SSB - Panel Meter?

John, I have not yet seen the bar graph indicator on our new-to-us icom 802. Is it something that has to be enabled in the myriad of controls and menus?

Matt


Sent from my iPhone so apologies for weird autocorrect typos.
__________________
Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
http://www.swansonsailor.id.au
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 18:54   #24
Registered User
 
deblen's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Grand Manan,N.B.,Canada N44.40 W66.50
Boat: Mascot 28 pilothouse motorsailer 28ft
Posts: 1,400
Images: 1
Re: Recommended SWR Meter for SSB - Panel Meter?

http://sfbaysss.org/resource/doc/Mar...ferson2014.pdf

No connection to above outfit.
__________________
My personal experience & humble opinions-feel free to ignore both
deblen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 19:05   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,429
Re: Recommended SWR Meter for SSB - Panel Meter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow View Post
John, I have not yet seen the bar graph indicator on our new-to-us icom 802. Is it something that has to be enabled in the myriad of controls and menus?

Matt


Sent from my iPhone so apologies for weird autocorrect typos.
Displayed during "Channel Indication" (vs. Frequency Indication)

from the manual......
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	802-3.jpg
Views:	120
Size:	68.8 KB
ID:	116164   Click image for larger version

Name:	802-2.jpg
Views:	85
Size:	27.0 KB
ID:	116165  

__________________
DotDun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 19:18   #26
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Recommended SWR Meter for SSB - Panel Meter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
Displayed during "Channel Indication" (vs. Frequency Indication)

from the manual......
Interesting, thank you. I will check when I get down to the boat, but I don't remember seeing it there during testing. Maybe I was in Frequency Indication mode as you suggest.

Matt
__________________
Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
http://www.swansonsailor.id.au
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 20:07   #27
Registered User
 
ka4wja's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 2,033
Re: Recommended SWR Meter for SSB - Panel Meter?

Matt,
As DotDun pointed out, it is right there on the display....and yes, it IS there in both the "channel name" screen as well as the "frequency" screen...

In the "channel name" screen, it is on the bottom right of the display, to the left of the Lat/Lon display...
In the "frequency" screen, it is in the bottom right of the display, to the right of the channel number display...

And, the "SWR indicator", replaces the word "TUNE" on the top row, left-hand-side of the display, but of course, only shows when the SWR is above 1.7:1 (it flashes), or above 2:1 (it is steady)...


I do hope this helps..

Fair winds..

John
__________________
John, KA4WJA
s/v Annie Laurie, WDB6927
MMSI# 366933110
ka4wja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 20:17   #28
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Recommended SWR Meter for SSB - Panel Meter?

Thanks DotDun and John. I went back to the manual and sure enough, there it is on page 14 of 78.
__________________
Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
http://www.swansonsailor.id.au
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 15:31   #29
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 12
Re: Recommended SWR Meter for SSB - Panel Meter?

JOHN,

Thank you for this, all extremely helpful and useful--precisely what I was looking for. Thank you!

Love your setup btw. I'll share mine soon as I get a few other things installed.

Would you happen to know where I could find a new (or newish) CN-465 VHF Power/SWR meter? This would go well with my 410 HF SWR meter

Also, do you ever make it up to California (where I am moored, San Francisco Bay)?

Cheers,

Mark
KK6ZNS
WDH5329
USS HUSKA
__________________
seegem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 17:16   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Adelaide, South Australia, sailing in the Med.
Boat: Beneteau, Oceanis 50
Posts: 426
Re: Recommended SWR Meter for SSB - Panel Meter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
Mark,
Sorry I'm coming in here late, and I see you have already
ordered an MFJ meter (REALLY SORRY about that!!)

Personally, I highly recommended a Daiwa CN-801!!!
(it's the same width and depth of the CN-101, and only 2" taller....but a nicer meter overall...and VERY easy to read!!)
Products | DAIWA Ham Radio

Daiwa CN-801 Professional Series Bench Meters CN-801HP - Free Shipping on Most Orders Over $99 at DX Engineering

But, I do hope I can help you further / in the future, AND help others here (especially those that may not have easy access to shipping/delivery services, i.e. out cruising...)

Now, BTW, since I do have a Daiwa CN-410 HF Power/SWR meter (as well as a CN-465 VHF Power/SWR meter), panel-mounted on-board....and I do like having them there, always showing what's going on...I thought my words here might have some impact...

Please have a look...





I hope this helps...

fair winds..

John
That's a nice set up you have there John - thanks for sharing with us all.
I have yet to install HF on our yacht, (the IC 706 II G head and tuner are yet to be mounted - then there is the backstay antenna to do).
As we are in the Med for a few years yet, that's all I am going to need. If we ever get to sail to New Zealand (my birthplace) then may look at a dedicated marine HF, but I am thinking by then (apart from Ham), our long-distance communication will be satellite. Will worry about that in a few years time if at all. In the meantime, we have a few more years in the Med (and who knows what the place is going to be like by then ....).

I look forward to seeing others installations, and also what people consider to be the optimum length (top of tuner to top insulator) for that back-stay antenna. As per another contributors previous post on this thread, I am considering connecting straight to the backstay (single on an Oceanis 50), with just the one insulator further up.

Thanks again,

David
VK5ZL
__________________

__________________
David B is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
men, ssb

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Built-in SWR meter in Icom M802? svlamorocha Marine Electronics 9 29-10-2013 04:29
SWR Meter CampDavid Marine Electronics 7 17-12-2012 06:16
Recommendation for SWR/Power meter gchabs Marine Electronics 5 30-04-2012 12:07
SWR Meters SteveHoiland Marine Electronics 4 04-01-2010 18:31
VHF & HF SWR meter and installation Rossmonty01 Marine Electronics 6 27-08-2008 04:26



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:01.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.