Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 3.67 average. Display Modes
Old 11-08-2010, 11:24   #496
Registered User
 
ArmyChief's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North Port, FL
Boat: Yamaha AR192
Posts: 292
Send a message via Skype™ to ArmyChief
Jugo,

First off, I will not get into a argument over the device you have posted previously. looking at the bottom of the PDF, it appears you are biased since you are a seller of this device. However, I will make my commentes based solely on the "specs" and picture of your "flyer"

10 db OMNI-Directional antenna - Why in teh world, would a boater anchored, moored or at dock want to transmit and/or recieve ina 360 degree pattern from his/her location??? First, this is a WASTE of energy. Your WiFi point is in one direction. Second, using a omni-directional antenna does not offer rejection to unwanted signals/noise..like a directional antenna does. Lastly, a good bi-quad or cantenna offers more than 10 db increase..typically 12-16 db (BTW, every 3 db is a double in effective power)

Based on the "specs" inside your low-cost proto box is a ALFA AWUS036H type USB adapter..is I had to guess. it surely uses the same chipset. It may also even be a lower cost clone/knockoff.

Long distances over water are not something unheard of..even with lower wattage units. Wifi operates in teh microwave band...it is line of sight...open sea..is the perfect environment for that type of distances.

The USB extenders I have used work just fine with the Wifi USB adapters (ALFA AWUS036H )..IMHO is one of the best out there (as long as it is an original..It is also available for under $30 U.S)

(ArmyChief gets off his soapbox)
__________________

__________________
ArmyChief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2010, 11:58   #497
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holland
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmyChief View Post
Jugo,

First off, I will not get into a argument over the device you have posted previously. looking at the bottom of the PDF, it appears you are biased since you are a seller of this device. However, I will make my commentes based solely on the "specs" and picture of your "flyer"

10 db OMNI-Directional antenna - Why in teh world, would a boater anchored, moored or at dock want to transmit and/or recieve ina 360 degree pattern from his/her location??? First, this is a WASTE of energy. Your WiFi point is in one direction. Second, using a omni-directional antenna does not offer rejection to unwanted signals/noise..like a directional antenna does. Lastly, a good bi-quad or cantenna offers more than 10 db increase..typically 12-16 db (BTW, every 3 db is a double in effective power)


(ArmyChief gets off his soapbox)
In a certain point of view you are right with omni and directional, but...
If you mean a 120 or 90 deg. opening angle you are fully right with respect to the antenna. But when you mean an antenna with a small directional view angle like a cantenna or yagi or whatever, it is a drama when you behind your anchor and have 4x times or more an hour redirect your antenna. once Moored in a harbor to the jetty it will do o.k. with a yagi.

An antother issue is the coax problem. Almost evereyone offers thin coaxcables, even good quality types like Aircel-5 give with 5 meter length
allready 2,66dB (almost 3) loss. or Aircell-7 1,78 dB. In this example I take respectable quality coax, but ofter a worse type of coax is offered.

A 3rd argument is all the lose parts you have to setup, for some no problem, for other undesirible.

Further is everybody free building his own sollution with his own materials, good Initiatives are always welcome and encouraged.
__________________

__________________
wad'nwind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2010, 12:07   #498
Registered User
 
ArmyChief's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North Port, FL
Boat: Yamaha AR192
Posts: 292
Send a message via Skype™ to ArmyChief
Quote:
Originally Posted by wad'nwind View Post
In a certain point of view you are right with omni and directional, but...
If you mean a 120 or 90 deg. opening angle you are fully right with respect to the antenna.
A cantenna has an approx 45 degree aperture. When you look at the distance from your vessel to the WiFi transmitting device...a 45 degree spread MORE than covers you..even with swinging on your moor/anchor for the most part (baring 180 degree current/wind changes)..then yes you may need to redirect your cantenna/yagi/bi-quad. A SMALL trade-off for the GREAT performance benefit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wad'nwind View Post
An another issue is the coax problem. Almost evereyone offers thin coaxcables, even good quality types like Aircel-5 give with 5 meter length
allready 2,66dB (almost 3) loss. or Aircell-7 1,78 dB. In this example I take respectable quality coax, but ofter a worse type of coax is offered.
Using USB instead of coax eliminates any loss!! (using an extender if needed). I do not recommend LMR cable (195, 200 or even 400) if a USB option is available

Quote:
Originally Posted by wad'nwind View Post
A 3rd argument is all the lose parts you have to setup, for some no problem, for other undesirible.

Further is everybody free building his own sollution with his own materials, good Initiatives are always welcome and encouraged.
On this we can agree.
__________________
ArmyChief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2010, 12:15   #499
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,022
" Why in teh world, would a boater anchored, moored or at dock want to transmit and/or recieve ina 360 degree pattern from his/her location??? "

Chief, I'm guessing you weren't in the Signal Corps? <G>

A directional antenna is a great idea if you are staked down to the ground. But if you are moored and you expect to swing 180 degrees twice a day during tidal flows or wind shifts--the omni is the only thing that will work without futzing around all day.

"A cantenna has an approx 45 degree aperture." No, not really. There are many cantenna designs and you can focus the beamspread to way less than 45 degrees. If your antenna has a 45d beamspread and mine has a 15d beamspread, remember that's a conical spread, and my beam now has aabout a NINEFOLD effective power increase. That's significant. Same power, but all focused in only 1/3 the height and 1/3 width.

USB is only one way to bypass problems with coax line loss, PoE (Power over Ethernet) is the other way, and you can easily run 100' of ethernet cable instead or worrying about USB. Ethernet is designed to do that job, USB is expressly not.
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2010, 12:28   #500
Registered User
 
ArmyChief's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North Port, FL
Boat: Yamaha AR192
Posts: 292
Send a message via Skype™ to ArmyChief
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
" Why in the world, would a boater anchored, moored or at dock want to transmit and/or recieve ina 360 degree pattern from his/her location??? "

Chief, I'm guessing you weren't in the Signal Corps? <G>
Why yes I am dear sir <G>..well..according to the Amry I am now ordanance...but that sir..is only a formality <wink>

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
A directional antenna is a great idea if you are staked down to the ground. But if you are moored and you expect to swing 180 degrees twice a day during tidal flows or wind shifts--the omni is the only thing that will work without futzing around all day.
You are correct..please read my response above...you may have to adjust your cantenna/directional antenna if that is happening..again..a small privce to pay IF YOU NEED the additional gain (understand..that my whole premise is getting the most gain with a set device..that meets the needs of the user and it's environment. Each circumstance may dictate deviations)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"A cantenna has an approx 45 degree aperture." No, not really. [
Well, by your own admission some can though. Like you say...the antenna can be designed to meet the needs. Horns can be added to add gain..Designs are a many

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
There are many cantenna designs and you can focus the beamspread to way less than 45 degrees. If your antenna has a 45d beamspread and mine has a 15d beamspread, remember that's a conical spread, and my beam now has aabout a NINEFOLD effective power increase. That's significant. Same power, but all focused in only 1/3 the height and 1/3 width.
Absolutely...however that 15d pattern wold definately be less conducive to a moving station then the 45d pattern device...which BOTH of them would be better than the omni-directional. I also want to make clear that we are talking about for the most part Wifi. Although a signal meter on your device may have 4 out of 5 bars.....an increase in only 1-2 db may be the difference between a 100 kbps download speed and 30 kbps...even though both show 4 bars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
USB is only one way to bypass problems with coax line loss, PoE (Power over Ethernet) is the other way, and you can easily run 100' of ethernet cable instead or worrying about USB. Ethernet is designed to do that job, USB is expressly not.
That sir I have never used..yet..but I'm sure it would only take me a few hours of internet reading to become profiecient
__________________
ArmyChief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2010, 12:33   #501
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: In the U.S.
Boat: FP Tobago 35 [sold]
Posts: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
USB is only one way to bypass problems with coax line loss, PoE (Power over Ethernet) is the other way, and you can easily run 100' of ethernet cable instead or worrying about USB. Ethernet is designed to do that job, USB is expressly not.
USB can be run up to 25 meters (about 80'). Stating it is "expressly not" is not accurate.

Mark
__________________
kiltym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2010, 12:48   #502
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,016
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiltym View Post
USB can be run up to 25 meters (about 80'). Stating it is "expressly not" is not accurate.
Mark
USB spec says 30 meters: 5 hubs connected with 5 meter cables. So let's just say 5 meters in reality

USB.org - FAQ: Cables, Connectors, and Networking
__________________
daddle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2010, 12:53   #503
Registered User
 
ArmyChief's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North Port, FL
Boat: Yamaha AR192
Posts: 292
Send a message via Skype™ to ArmyChief
daddle..if you'll look one page back, I posted a link for a 10 metere active cable..1 cable. Mark was talking about "active" USB cables..not USB by itself
__________________
ArmyChief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2010, 12:53   #504
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: In the U.S.
Boat: FP Tobago 35 [sold]
Posts: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by daddle View Post
USB spec says 30 meters: 5 hubs connected with 5 meter cables. So let's just say 5 meters in reality

USB.org - FAQ: Cables, Connectors, and Networking
Yes, and an active extension cable is a 5M cable with a built in hub. Or, as someone else pointed out they have 10M and 15M extension cables with hubs as well.

So, I don't agree that "5 meters in reality" is accurate. There are plenty of WiFi devices running off USB cables further than 5 meters from the computer. 80' is reality.

Mark
__________________
kiltym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2010, 12:54   #505
Registered User
 
ArmyChief's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North Port, FL
Boat: Yamaha AR192
Posts: 292
Send a message via Skype™ to ArmyChief
Mark..seems we posted at the same time..LOL..too funny
__________________
ArmyChief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2010, 13:02   #506
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,016
Images: 4
5 active cables in series? Close to the worst design advice ever. But, hey, have fun with the unreliability.
__________________
daddle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2010, 13:05   #507
Registered User
 
ArmyChief's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North Port, FL
Boat: Yamaha AR192
Posts: 292
Send a message via Skype™ to ArmyChief
daddle..not advice...options. The users purse and needs will dictate what is used
__________________
ArmyChief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2010, 13:06   #508
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: In the U.S.
Boat: FP Tobago 35 [sold]
Posts: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by daddle View Post
5 active cables in series? Close to the worst design advice ever. But, hey, have fun with the unreliability.
No unreliability here, or on other boats that have multiple cables running. Lots of examples to back this statement up as well.

Mark
__________________
kiltym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2010, 14:20   #509
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,022
Mark-
"USB can be run up to 25 meters (about 80'). Stating it is "expressly not" is not accurate."
I'll stand by my statement, since I don't consider running five meters five times with five active repeaters to be the design intent (or goal) of USB. That just shows how far you can push a spec--not what it is intended for. USB is intended for short "leashes" on devices, as opposed to various networking cables like ethernet, which are intended for runs in the 100 foot, 100 meter, and up range. Before and without active repeaters.
By analogy...you need five "hops" to get USB out to 80 meters? In five "hops", my internet connection has gone a thousand miles. Very much horses for courses, and I don't want my plow mule running the Triple Crown, no matter how much he aspires to be Sea Biscuit.<G>
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2010, 14:23   #510
Registered User
 
ArmyChief's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North Port, FL
Boat: Yamaha AR192
Posts: 292
Send a message via Skype™ to ArmyChief
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Very much horses for courses, and I don't want my plow mule running the Triple Crown, no matter how much he aspires to be Sea Biscuit.<G>
You have a plow mule?...wow
__________________

__________________
ArmyChief is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cats Better for Long Distance Sailing? Cavecreature Multihull Sailboats 68 29-05-2009 02:05
Long distance communication MDhillon Navigation 2 10-03-2009 17:39
Long distance transport? dory36 Dollars & Cents 5 25-01-2007 13:35
buying and owning boats long distance capt lar Monohull Sailboats 10 29-03-2005 08:15



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:30.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.