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Old 01-03-2016, 09:51   #76
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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A claim made by another poster, was that "charts" for chartplotters "cost a fortune" compared to charts for iPad. I knew this not be so in North America, so researched and found this not to so in Europe and the Mediterranean either. End Quote

I would request that you provide a link for Navionics gold cartography (app equivalent ) for the Caribbean for my Raymarine dragonfly 7 for the same price as an app please !




Sent from my iPad.......i apologise for the auto corrects !!!
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Old 01-03-2016, 10:18   #77
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
The Lifeproof nuud case is waterproof down to 2 meters for up to one hour. I use mine to sometimes take shallow underwater photographs, which look great on the nearly 10 inch high resolution display. Not bad... considering the cost was only $79 for charts and the Nobeltec app was free. I'm also using my iPad Air which is presently three thousand miles away from my boat to post on this forum.

Try that sometime with a 4 inch basic, 350 binnacle-mounted Chartplotter.
I don't think a device's ability to do things irrelevant to sailing the boat, carries a great deal of weight in this discussion. I have lots of devices I adore that are irrelevant to sailing the boat. Everything is a compromise. iPad for photos, no optical zoom, pretty crappy camera comparative to a proper camera of similar value. iPad for posting, don't even talk to me about the virtues of a virtual keyboard. iPad for viewing charts in hi res, crap compared to 55" 4G TV. No argument, i devices can do a lot of things, none all that well.



Now lets see that iDevice:

1. Display depth and sonar, so one can see the contour of the actual bottom, weeds, structure, etc., for the purpose of navigating, anchoring, etc.

2. Display radar scans from the boat, so one can see objects in the water like boats, canoes, etc. in fog, to safely navigate the vessel.

3. AIS targets, so one can see commercial vessels, to safely navigate the vessel.

4. Control the autohelm.

5. Display actual wind speed and direction, speed through the water, engine data, etc., etc. etc.,

There are so many things that iDevice's can't do at all, that are essential to safe navigation, IMHO, to suggest they can replace a proper chartplotter, is absolutely ludicrous.

Just like a Jeep. It doesn't do anything particularly well. Cars provide more comfortable transportation, pick-ups carry more stuff, ATVs off-road better. To suggest a Jeeps are safer and make all other vehicles obsolete, is equally ridiculous. Jeeps have been around quite some time, and there seems to still be quite an abundance of cars, trucks, and ATVs around.

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Old 01-03-2016, 10:26   #78
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoofsmit View Post
Quote

A claim made by another poster, was that "charts" for chartplotters "cost a fortune" compared to charts for iPad. I knew this not be so in North America, so researched and found this not to so in Europe and the Mediterranean either. End Quote

I would request that you provide a link for Navionics gold cartography (app equivalent ) for the Caribbean for my Raymarine dragonfly 7 for the same price as an app please !




Sent from my iPad.......i apologise for the auto corrects !!!
I'm not sure what you mean? The Nobeltec app is free, there is no cost. You simply pay for the charts that you wish to purchase. In my case, the entire Mediterranean set of charts I last purchased just three days ago for the INavx app was only $69. The INavx set of Med charts for the iPhone was only $29. One only needs to purchase the INavx app one time, then it can be loaded onto multiple devices (2 iPhones and three iPads in our case). I don't even remember how much the INavx app cost, since I purchased it over five years ago. I think it costs around $49.99 today.
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Old 01-03-2016, 10:41   #79
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoofsmit View Post
Quote

A claim made by another poster, was that "charts" for chartplotters "cost a fortune" compared to charts for iPad. I knew this not be so in North America, so researched and found this not to so in Europe and the Mediterranean either. End Quote

I would request that you provide a link for Navionics gold cartography (app equivalent ) for the Caribbean for my Raymarine dragonfly 7 for the same price as an app please !




Sent from my iPad.......i apologise for the auto corrects !!!
Cmon guys.

I'm not your personal world chart researcher.

Look for yourselves.

There are lots of chartplotters available with pre-loaded charts for free or next to it, for virtually anywhere in the world (I understand not for Hong Kong as of late.)

If one can afford to sail their vessel out of home waters, the cost of chartplotter charts is the least of the expenses. If one can't afford to safely navigate and operate, maybe they shouldn't venture afar, compromising their safety and the safety of others.

Just sayin'.

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Old 01-03-2016, 10:48   #80
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

Ramblinrod (Rod of Sheen Marine Services), it is abundantly clear you have a very clear opinion when it comes to chart plotters for marine applications. I've tried to restrain myself, but this is an instance where Kenomac makes a very valid point suggesting you're drifting off topic of the original thread (regardless of how well intentioned you might have been).

One step further, IMHO, your insistence that a chart plotter is a safety device demonstrates a clear misunderstanding of what constitutes marine safety equipment (or perhaps a lack of appreciation for the level of navigational experience and skill most recreational boaters and nearly all cruisers have developed during their years of experience). A complete set of paper charts along with a reliable compass and the understanding of how to use both are the basis for navigational safety. Reliance on any electronic "aid" to navigation as a 'mandatory safety device' for 'serious off shore sailing' is as disingenuous as it is absurd.

I'm sure you are a competent purveyor of marine equipment and are skilled at your job. A piece of advice I would offer would be to be a bit more circumspect in sharing your opinions if you are interested in attracting customers, educating those participating in the forum of the benefits of using proper marine equipment, and finally gaining the respect and collegiality of members of this forum.
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Old 01-03-2016, 10:50   #81
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Cmon guys.

I'm not your personal world chart researcher.

Look for yourselves.

There are lots of chartplotters available with pre-loaded charts for free or next to it, for virtually anywhere in the world (I understand not for Hong Kong as of late.)

If one can afford to sail their vessel out of home waters, the cost of chartplotter charts is the least of the expenses. If one can't afford to safely navigate and operate, maybe they shouldn't venture afar, compromising their safety and the safety of others.

Just sayin'.

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I'm with you Rod

I use an ipad on board as a secondary convenient back up. But any advocating that an ipad can replace even a cheap chart plotter is nuts IMO. But, I'm also an advocate for having paper charts on board too. At least in this area of the world vessels still run aground in places where a chart plotter told them they were safe where as the chart if they were following it, would have warned them to stay clear.
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Old 01-03-2016, 10:58   #82
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

Thread hijacking complete.

I think the OP received the waterproof case and mount information needed in the first few pages.
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Old 01-03-2016, 11:16   #83
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Thread hijacking complete.

I think the OP received the waterproof case and mount information needed in the first few pages.
That's what I said but the OP argued and said he didn't.. so we have to chat about something whilst we wait for the kettle to boil
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Old 01-03-2016, 11:25   #84
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
That's what I said but the OP argued and said he didn't.. so we have to chat about something whilst we wait for the kettle to boil
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Old 01-03-2016, 11:32   #85
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
I guess to sum up, I would suggest that nav software on a mobile phone, makes nav software on a tablet redundant and vice versa, but neither of these devices makes a proper chartplotter redundant. The chartplotter should be the primary navigation instrument, followed by an number of redundant mobile devices, charts, guide books, websites, etc.
Let's see what the essential differences are.

You emphasised safety, and I agree. I wouldn't say that a plotter would make other electronic devices redundant since I want to have at least two devices that can display my GPS position on a map (i.e. redundancy needed).

What are the properties of a plotter that a tablet can not make redundant? You mentioned at least weatherproofness and good integration to the binnacle. Plotters come from a healthy and working tradition here, but tablets are not far behind. You can integrate a tablet with a waterproof case to the binnacle. In the future there may not be any noticeable difference between these two product categories. Maybe soon there will be just displays, not plotters or tablets.

We could add luminosity to that list. Plotters are probably still ahead, but who knows how long.

You said that chartplotter should be the primary navigation instrument. Maybe not. We almost agreed that paper charts are still important, and plotters and apps clearly tell us today that they should not be used as primary means of navigation.

On the other hand I do not oppose tablets and plotters becoming the accepted primary means of navigation as soon as we can be sure that they do contain all the required (official) information. One must of course have some other backup systems (electronic or paper) available then.

Plotters do not make tablets redundant also because nowadays we need tablets for so many other (also navigation related) things, like checking the web page of the next marina. Here merger of plotter and tablet evolution could mean that also "plotters" could have browsing capabilities in the future. Browsing will probably be mostly done indoors, so the outdoor device could be movable or a simpler device.

Plotters have some integrated features that are not widely available in tables, e.g. radar images. Plotter manufacturers probably want to delay making these interfaces open to other manufacturers / tablets. There are already some radar apps for tablets. Integration of tablets to the boat internal communication bus is also not yet very common, but probably more more common in the future.

I might sum up shortly, convergence is visible.
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Old 01-03-2016, 11:38   #86
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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Originally Posted by neophytecruiser View Post
Ramblinrod (Rod of Sheen Marine Services), it is abundantly clear you have a very clear opinion when it comes to chart plotters for marine applications. I've tried to restrain myself, but this is an instance where Kenomac makes a very valid point suggesting you're drifting off topic of the original thread (regardless of how well intentioned you might have been).

One step further, IMHO, your insistence that a chart plotter is a safety device demonstrates a clear misunderstanding of what constitutes marine safety equipment (or perhaps a lack of appreciation for the level of navigational experience and skill most recreational boaters and nearly all cruisers have developed during their years of experience). A complete set of paper charts along with a reliable compass and the understanding of how to use both are the basis for navigational safety. Reliance on any electronic "aid" to navigation as a 'mandatory safety device' for 'serious off shore sailing' is as disingenuous as it is absurd.

I'm sure you are a competent purveyor of marine equipment and are skilled at your job. A piece of advice I would offer would be to be a bit more circumspect in sharing your opinions if you are interested in attracting customers, educating those participating in the forum of the benefits of using proper marine equipment, and finally gaining the respect and collegiality of members of this forum.
Thank you for your opinions and advice.

I feel this sort of thread drift is quite natural, and am fully aware that anyone who disagrees can choose not to follow, participate, or even post disapproval.

I thinks it is great that we all have differing opinions, else there would only be one make, model, size, and propulsion method of all vessels on the water, and frankly, this forum wouldn't exist at all.

On subject (in response to your post).

I consider a chartplotter, an "essential" safety device for navigation.

Just as a fire extinquisher is an "essential" and "mandatory" (two different things) safety device, for cooking food aboard.

Per the regs I'm familiar with, some form of charts (not necessarily paper) are "mandatory safety requirements", when not intimately familiar with local waters.

I personally consider paper charts "essential safety equipment" (though not legislated "mandatory") on my vessel, as I do my chartplotter. I don't consider the charts on my mobile devices "essential". They sure are "convenient", and "nice to have", but I wouldn't have qualms about sailing without them as long as I had my paper charts and chart plotter.

My first years of sailing, we navigated by compass, paper charts, tennis ball on a string for speed, and lead weight on the other end for depth. As time has progressed and we've moved to larger vessels and water, I consider those devices to be "bare minimum" navigation tools, and many more to be "essential".

If it broke, I would replace my chartplotter at the earliest convenience, despite having various mobile devices aboard running nav software and electronic charts. If I felt mobile devices were sufficiently equal, thereby making it obsolete, I would not.

I am required to disclose that I am a marine service provider by forum rules, but would anyway, even knowing full well that my posts could be off-putting to some.

I am not trying to be sneaky or mislead anyone.

I am posting it because it's what I believe in my soul. If I didn't, I wouldn't be spending all this time on it.

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Old 01-03-2016, 11:59   #87
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

One picture is better than 1000 words... Weatherproofing is not an issue. iPad Air in Lifeproof case, navigator out of the elements watching the radar... Instead of getting soaked behind the helm monitoring a binnacle mounted Chartplotter.

Our iPad chartplotters can be anywhere we want them to be.... on the binnacle, in the saloon, on front of the radar, in the master cabin or here at home for planning purposes.
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Old 01-03-2016, 12:14   #88
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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Let's see what the essential differences are.

You emphasised safety, and I agree. I wouldn't say that a plotter would make other electronic devices redundant since I want to have at least two devices that can display my GPS position on a map (i.e. redundancy needed).

What are the properties of a plotter that a tablet can not make redundant? You mentioned at least weatherproofness and good integration to the binnacle. Plotters come from a healthy and working tradition here, but tablets are not far behind. You can integrate a tablet with a waterproof case to the binnacle. In the future there may not be any noticeable difference between these two product categories. Maybe soon there will be just displays, not plotters or tablets.

We could add luminosity to that list. Plotters are probably still ahead, but who knows how long.

You said that chartplotter should be the primary navigation instrument. Maybe not. We almost agreed that paper charts are still important, and plotters and apps clearly tell us today that they should not be used as primary means of navigation.

On the other hand I do not oppose tablets and plotters becoming the accepted primary means of navigation as soon as we can be sure that they do contain all the required (official) information. One must of course have some other backup systems (electronic or paper) available then.

Plotters do not make tablets redundant also because nowadays we need tablets for so many other (also navigation related) things, like checking the web page of the next marina. Here merger of plotter and tablet evolution could mean that also "plotters" could have browsing capabilities in the future. Browsing will probably be mostly done indoors, so the outdoor device could be movable or a simpler device.

Plotters have some integrated features that are not widely available in tables, e.g. radar images. Plotter manufacturers probably want to delay making these interfaces open to other manufacturers / tablets. There are already some radar apps for tablets. Integration of tablets to the boat internal communication bus is also not yet very common, but probably more more common in the future.

I might sum up shortly, convergence is visible.
I agree with your summary, as previously stated, when someone makes a mobile device:

1. Waterproof while plugged in.
2. Viewable in direct sunlight.
3. Rugged and robust.
4. Compatible with other vessel instruments.

It will make chartplotter's, as we know them today, redundant.

Then again, in essence, it will be a chartplotter. Is Apple going to get into the chartplotter business? All of these things cost. The costs may not be valued by the general populace. So the costs to develop and loss of economy of scale has to born by the prospective customers who do value these capabilities. (Hence the cost of chartplotters.) Then again, I am always surprised what Apple can get away with respect to cost, vs form, vs function.

Then again, who knows what chartplotter manufacturers are currently working on to assure business sustainability. If we can think about this, you know they are.

The answer is, we can't possibly know what the future holds, and that is likely a very good thing.

Based on currently technology, mobile devices cannot effectively replace chartplotters.

In future, a device one plugs into the socket at the base of their skull may give them virtual intimate knowledge of local waters (and anything else they desire), eliminating tablets, chartplotters, youtube, and a whole lot of other things.

I know it sounds far-fetched today, but with the propensity toward plastic surgery and social connectivity, it may not be that far off.

I just don't personally believe that iDevices will make chartplotters redundant in the near future. But I've been wrong before. I owned 8-tracks, and watched cassettes take over, despite digital video tape being vastly superior for sound quality. I watched digital video on 12" video discs, while VHS beat Betavision for video distribution dominance, only for all to be replaced 15 years or so later by DVD, being a very close relative to the video disc.

For me, today, and as far as I can see forward, a mobile device does not negate the existence of a chartplotter on my vessel.

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Old 01-03-2016, 12:50   #89
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
One picture is better than 1000 words... Weatherproofing is not an issue. iPad Air in Lifeproof case, navigator out of the elements watching the radar... Instead of getting soaked behind the helm monitoring a binnacle mounted Chartplotter.

Our iPad chartplotters can be anywhere we want them to be.... on the binnacle, in the saloon, on front of the radar, in the master cabin or here at home for planning purposes.
I concede you win on argument persistence but not validity.

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Old 01-03-2016, 13:07   #90
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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Is Apple going to get into the chartplotter business?
Probably not. Apple is in tablet business. Some other companies are in waterproof case business, and some third companies are in navigation software business. Together they could provide convincing packages. (It is also in principle possible that Apple will some day make also waterproof tablets.)

Quote:
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Then again, who knows what chartplotter manufacturers are currently working on to assure business sustainability.
Probably they try to keep their remaining proprietary interfaces like the radar interface closed . Time however works against them. If they have lots of air in their plotter prices, I would sell them cheaper (I understand that some of their features are not cheap, and people are willing to pay for those parts). I would also try to provide good software integration and some additional improved and improving features between all their gadgets as part of their branded "complete navigation packages". They should thus concentrate in providing more value per dollar instead of relying on their historical dominance of the market.
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