Yacht prices defy logic

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

And fools and their money are soon parted.

I have never made a purchasing decision based on heart.
Logic and numbers only.

Originally Posted by Simi 60

No shortage of fun, just no wasteful spending or stupid decisions included with that fun.

It is not alright to call fools or stupids to the ones who can and like to have new boats.

They are so much fools as the ones that don't buy them are poor that have just not the means to buy a new one.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by coastalexplorer

I really do like that comment By SAILPOWER
(could you excuse a minor edit?) If one can afford it, buying new can be a very attractive option.

IF some people did not buy new boats and keep replacing them with bigger and better boats. There would be no end product to purchase for those who might not understand all the costs and expenses of buying used.

There is a great deal of truth to this, Unless there is the emotional commitment to restore a particular classic yacht?

There is very little point in dealing in the second hand market. The cost of refit of a cheaply acquired hull will keep adding up until the day you launch it. At which point you will realize that you could have bought a new boat on a bank loan and been sailing all those months and years: For about the same amount of money.

The reasons why this happens are numerous. The most obvious one is that depending on the size of the vessel it takes between 20 and 50 skilled workers about three months to a year. To build a new boat in a well equipped workshop. As a manufacturing company they buy all supplies and fittings at wholesale prices. IF you take this on your self. unless it is in your own back yard. The cost of marina fees will add up to a very significant amount. and your travel expenses between your residence and the marina will add up to about what all those employees paid for driving to work and home again during the original build. I nice marine store might give you 10% off of retail? this does not cover the purchase taxes in most areas. If you do not have enough 'spare time' to work fast enough, the shelf life on resins, sealants, paints, and varnishes will expire and result in the cost of replacement, unless you are an obsessed accountant you will quickly loose track of how much you spent on, bolts, screws, & nails, when you are all done with your boat building hobby, The market value of your creation will never repay what you spent; Let alone pay you for your time. But there will always be those who feel sure that they can win at this game.
For those who buy something used that is still in some sort of usable sailing condition, If they are not particularly fussy about the deficiencies and tolerate them. The requirement for repairs and upgrades will happen. So the situation is essentially the same. They are just on the optional payment plan. Most likely in denial of the true costs.

So I do not believe yacht prices defy logic, because logically its an expensive game, If you have to ask the price you probably can not afford it.

This analysis works well if you love your job, get relatively highly paid doing it and have no time left for anything else but sailing. Most of us, who end up buying used, often 20-30+ year old used, are not in such a position of luxury of choice. For me to buy new would mean spending significantly more hours in the office and most likely not even having the time to enjoy that new boat.

As things stand now I have plenty of time to spend on the boat, not necessarily sailing, as I am of of those who enjoys boat related time other than pure sailing. For me a bad day on the boat beats a great day in the office anytime. Of the 5 boats I owned 2 were project boats and I enjoyed bringing them to life (one successfully, one not so much). The experience I gained from these projects is immeasurable and IMO time well spent as I learned more in one season working with such a boat then I would in all of the years of hands on classes or forum based learning. The experience one cannot replicate when one's mind is focused on "no time other than time for sailing" type of boat ownership.

[BlackHeron]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

This analysis works well if you love your job, get relatively highly paid doing it and have no time left for anything else but sailing. Most of us, who end up buying used, often 20-30+ year old used, are not in such a position of luxury of choice. For me to buy new would mean spending significantly more hours in the office and most likely not even having the time to enjoy that new boat.

As things stand now I have plenty of time to spend on the boat, not necessarily sailing, as I am of of those who enjoys boat related time other than pure sailing. For me a bad day on the boat beats a great day in the office anytime. Of the 5 boats I owned 2 were project boats and I enjoyed bringing them to life (one successfully, one not so much). The experience I gained from these projects is immeasurable and IMO time well spent as I learned more in one season working with such a boat then I would in all of the years of hands on classes or forum based learning. The experience one cannot replicate when one's mind is focused on "no time other than time for sailing" type of boat ownership.

You also have to factor in the fact that many/most new boats are often not built or marketed to the purpose you may want to use it for. Most new production sailboats today are built to be marina queens and are unsuited for bluewater passages, living aboard on the hook, or even being sailed in all conditions. Many buyers today want huge open spaces inside with little storage, few handholds, or functional interiors that work in anything but calm seas. They crave spacious marina condos and Ikea Feng shui interiors. Go to any boat show and tour the boats on display. Nothing on the floor is suitable for our needs. It is all cardboard crap to me.

New doesn't mean "ready to go" either. Brand new boats often take a lot of working of the bugs out. Turnkey boats are a myth IMHO. The quality of "workmanship" today isn't what it was years ago, if it ever did exist. If you want something specific you are going to need to build it up yourself or settle for what Joe second-mortgage dreams about for his weekend floating palace.

[john61ct]

As usual there is no bright B&W line one you get past New vs Used.

Some used boats are objectively incredible bargains at a given price, while others are clearly bottomless pits only a deranged obsessive would enjoy.

But very few are that clear cut, for the rest, the value per dollar depends on myriad variables, of that owner's preferences and situation.

It is very useful for us to help each other increase our knowledge base and improve our ability to buy smart.

Clearly many don't get to a high level of expertise before buying their first boat, but hey, as long as it doesn't threaten your solvency it's all a learning experience, and hopefully also enjoyable along the way.

Life's to short to waste time doing stuff you don't enjoy, and for both those that would rather work and save harder/longer, and those like tinkering and get by on less, more power to us all.

[geoleo]

99.999% sailboat owners are facing significant losses 100% of the time! This is why they cling to high prices to sell their boatys. Carrying costs are large and eternal. Slip-dock-insurance-breakdowns-cleaning -commuting- high and scarce and getting scarcer yard costs soar as yards are closed due to condo developers buying out yards- plus hurricanes (yard charges in Marathon keys have doubled since Irma! on and on forever-------

[Polux]

Originally Posted by coastalexplorer

.
The cost of refit of a cheaply acquired hull will keep adding up until the day you launch it. At which point you will realize that you could have bought a new boat on a bank loan and been sailing all those months and years: For about the same amount of money.
....

Well, I would not say the same amount of money because those that adquire those old hulls, boats with 25 years and more will never upgrade the boat and use it in good weather just for very short periods.

On a thread that is going on you can find out that most don't replace the rigging on 30 year old boats, not to mention the chainplates...and the old engine is still working but with 1/6 of the reliability of a new one.

If someone will buy a 30 year old boat and put it as in new condition I agree with you, unless it is one of those guys that like to be years working on the boat instead of sailing and is able to do all the work...and even so....

I remember some years ago a guy that become famous because he decided that he liked more the old HR than the mew ones, so he bought an old one with 20 or 25 years, a bit less than 50ft and had it fully restaured. At the end he was very happy because the boat had costed him 75% of the price of a new boat.

Off course, if on the same day that he finish the restaur he sold the boat he would have sold it for 30 or 40% of the price of a new boat and would have lost a huge amount of money.

A friend of mine, a German, bought a very nice 30 year old sailboat on the same Italian shipyard I had the boat. It costed only 8000 euros and was a very interesting boat, an ex racer, an one off and a very fast boat for his time and the hull was on good co0ndituion as well as the mast. He bought it with the idea of restauring it.

I found him some years later, he had put a new engine on the boat, a new rig but had stopped with the restauration. He said to me that he had spent a lot of money on the boat and that it was money wasted because nobody would give much more for the boat than what he had paid for it.

If someone is interested I have a friend with a 20 year old First, new engine, new rig, new furler, new electronics and he cannot sell it for more than the average First 30 on the market. Lost a huge amount of money on that boat but he sails a lot offshore so he needed a reliable boat,.He bought a new Salona.

An then it is the law that is going to appear regarding the disposal of old boats. Disposing of an old cruising boat costs from 5000 to 15000 euros, depending on size. Guess who is going to pay for that, regarding old boats on the market.

[john61ct]

Yes just like a customized Unimog "expedition" campervan, the only value is subsequent years of the owner enjoying it.

Anyone thinking the market will return costs sunk into a restore / refit is a fool.

But if you get a decade of enjoyment safety and comfort out of it, then it's money well spent.

[Woodland Hills]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Not necesarrilly

We bought our boat with no engine hours listed or logbooks.
Motor had very low hours (less than 5000), still had original factory rocker cover seals indicating to the mechanic that it'd never had the covers of for first valve timing check and the internals were spotless.

So you would recommend buying a 90 foot yacht that did not record engine hours or "lost" the records?

[john61ct]

Then you get people saying

What a great bargain, don't want another one but too good a deal to pass it up!

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/....php?p=2514203

[Captain Randy]

That is pretty funny.....

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

You also have to factor in the fact that many/most new boats are often not built or marketed to the purpose you may want to use it for. Most new production sailboats today are built to be marina queens and are unsuited for bluewater passages, living aboard on the hook, or even being sailed in all conditions. Many buyers today want huge open spaces inside with little storage, few handholds, or functional interiors that work in anything but calm seas. They crave spacious marina condos and Ikea Feng shui interiors. Go to any boat show and tour the boats on display. Nothing on the floor is suitable for our needs. It is all cardboard crap to me.

New doesn't mean "ready to go" either. Brand new boats often take a lot of working of the bugs out. Turnkey boats are a myth IMHO. The quality of "workmanship" today isn't what it was years ago, if it ever did exist. If you want something specific you are going to need to build it up yourself or settle for what Joe second-mortgage dreams about for his weekend floating palace.

I learned all that long time ago. It is very visible when looking at majority of new boats at boat shows and noticing IKEA-type laminates already peeling off from sharp corners. And then you notice particle board underneath. I shudder to think how these boats will age in 20-30 years, if they ever age that far.

Few years back when I did a survey of my 36 footer the surveyor put a replacement value of over $350K, close to $400K. I was surprised given the fact that most production 36 footers today are in the 200K-250K range at most. He said that "they don't make them like they used to", at least the run of the mill production boats. And that to make one like mine today would take $350-400K.

Then I did some more research and found out that base price of my brand when new was around $80K whereas same size Catalina or Hunters were going for $45-50K base price. That explained a lot. But today, in equally similar condition, my brand, since it is only known in New England, would not command a better price than well known Catalinas. And actually a much lower price then Sabres, which IMO are of no better quality. Which makes my brand a great buy but not such a great sell.

[FlightPlan]

Originally Posted by shadow

But, if you love and appreciate the build, look and solid build quality as well as true cabinet making, etc.. Then, there is no contest.. There's always a huge difference when you take into consideration the heritage of the builder, the quality of everything, etc...

Here Here! Love my Little Harbor.

[FlightPlan]

This is the oldest lie in the book regarding rich people saving money with taxes.


Posted by: Valhalla360
No sane financial adviser will recommend paying $1000 to save $250 (or whatever it works out to be with your tax rate), which is essentially what you get when you take the depreciation.

Now if you are going to buy a new boat anyway, it make sense to take the $250 but to spend more to save less, doesn't work out.


Yeah, if that was true, the Luxury Tax would not have wrecked the industry in the mid-nineties.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

...

Few years back when I did a survey of my 36 footer the surveyor put a replacement value of over $350K, close to $400K. I was surprised given the fact that most production 36 footers today are in the 200K-250K range at most. He said that "they don't make them like they used to", at least the run of the mill production boats. And that to make one like mine today would take $350-400K.
...

I am a bit confused there: He said that your boat had a market value of over 350k, or he said that making today a boat like that would cost that money?

Probably the later and people still complaining about the prices of new boats!!!

What is the boat?

Yes, mass production really brought prices down. Regarding building quality there are some inconvenient but in what regards overall quality namely in what regards hull and sailing there are no possible comparison and besides you will find today boats with very different prices and finishes.

I made a post some days ago a post about a comparison between an old deck saloon and a new one. I think it is relevant for what I am saying. When you buy new, if you buy well, you buy also the state of the art in what regards boat design and boat building techniques and materials.

I was responding to someone that was saying that between an old Deck Saloon and a new one there was nothing new.

Originally Posted by Polux

This is a type of boat ( true deck saloon) and they exist for many years as other type of boats like Aft cockpit sailboats or center cockpit sailboats.

What is new regarding these boats is that they are not anymore slow boats but good sailing boats.

Take for instance the Moody 33 that you posted and compare it with the Nordship 36:



As you can see in what regards hull and appendices design there is nothing in common. Only the configuration of DS is common between the two boats.

Many have a wrong idea that older boats have a better AVS , a better final stability and are safer. Each case is a case but as a rule that cannot be more wrong and those two boats are a good example.

The Moody has a B/D of 33.3% but the ballast is very inefficient due to the small draft of the keel (1.45m) and to a keel that is not bulbed. Those 33.3% of B/D correspond to a much smaller ratio on a modern keel design, like the one on the Nordship 360.

The Nordship 360 has a 33.8% B/D a slighter bigger one than on the Moody but one that would correspond to one with a hugely bigger ratio on the Moody. The Nordship has much bigger draft (1.8m draft) and an incomparable more efficient keel that is composed by a steel foil with a lead torpedo at the end of it. No possible comparison between the safety stability on both boats, being the one on the Nordship vastly superior.

Than in what regards sailing, again no possible comparison, the Nordship is a much better and faster sailing boat. That huge diference in stability (I am referring to it proportionally to boat sizes) translates in the ability to carry much more sail and the modern building techniques used on the Nordship allows it to be as strong and proportionally much lighter.

That shows clearly on the SA/D with the Moody with 13.8 and the Nordship with 20.23.

Note that the Nordship is not a performance boat, the Nordship had always been designed as good offshore cruisers, like the Moody in its time. Well, it still is a good boat but contrary to what you imply there are a huge diference between the two boat's in all counts and a lot of "new" in what regards the Nordship in compassion with the Moody.

All the "new" comes from the design evolution that separates the two boats, around 25 years and the evolution is not only on the hull, just compare the interiors:

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

So you would recommend buying a 90 foot yacht that did not record engine hours or "lost" the records?

Did I say that?

Nah, didn't think so.