Middle class family entry level coastal cruisers, what are they?

[Rick486]

Originally Posted by Southcoasting

Secondary education has become a diminished return on investment. There are many graduates these days that work at restaurants than in office jobs. Not by preference, but by necessity to keep up with their school loans.

Somewhere along the line, secondary education has become big business and now, cheap is $20k a year.



.

Your post raises several points I would like to comment on. My education through Ph.D. was completed in 1975 so I am several generations removed. However, I retired as a professor in engineering and held positions both in government and in industry between 1968 and 2009 so I feel qualified to offer these remarks.

Higher education has indeed become a diminishing returns investment primarily due to the explosion of supply, and specifically supply of degrees from courses of study which are of marginal to low value to potential employers. Parents are bombarded with media stories of the importance of a college degree. Parents are pressured to work toward their children attending college, with little or not investigation of the courses of study. The parents breathe a sigh of relief when their son/daughter is accepted and announces they will major in a humanities area, unknown to the parents, that offers little or no chance of employment upon graduation This then results in the so-called "boomerang" offspring who then moves into the parents' basement. Now one might ask, "...how does this happen...".

Well, there are a number of causes:
1. Parents' inability or unwillingness to delve into the offered courses of study to ascertain what the potential employ-ability of their child might be. They research the hell out of a new car purchase for $30,000 but do zero research on a child's education at $120,000 or more.
2. The easy money available through government backed loans for tuition. In response to the pressure for everyone to attend college, regardless of the course of study.
3. When I graduated there were about 1700 institutions of higher education in the US. Recently there were 4800, which far exceeds the population growth. This growth is directly related to the untold billions poured into higher education by the US government. Institutions of higher education at the 5th and 6th tier were founded in response to the enormous flow of federal dollars into education, both in the form of grants and in the form of guaranteed loans. Many of these institutions are selling worthless degrees to parents who do not take the time to research the product they are buying. All institutions of higher education carefully track the federal budget in the US to base decisions on tuition and capital expenditures. Hence, the government finds itself in the position of Sisyphus, with the slope getting longer and longer.

This is what might be termed "...a self-licking ice cream cone...".

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Rick486

Your post raises several points I would like to comment on. My education through Ph.D. was completed in 1975 so I am several generations removed. However, I retired as a professor in engineering and held positions both in government and in industry between 1968 and 2009 so I feel qualified to offer these remarks.

Higher education has indeed become a diminishing returns investment primarily due to the explosion of supply, and specifically supply of degrees from courses of study which are of marginal to low value to potential employers. Parents are bombarded with media stories of the importance of a college degree. Parents are pressured to work toward their children attending college, with little or not investigation of the courses of study. The parents breathe a sigh of relief when their son/daughter is accepted and announces they will major in a humanities area, unknown to the parents, that offers little or no chance of employment upon graduation This then results in the so-called "boomerang" offspring who then moves into the parents' basement. Now one might ask, "...how does this happen...".

Well, there are a number of causes:
1. Parents' inability or unwillingness to delve into the offered courses of study to ascertain what the potential employ-ability of their child might be. They research the hell out of a new car purchase for $30,000 but do zero research on a child's education at $120,000 or more.
2. The easy money available through government backed loans for tuition. In response to the pressure for everyone to attend college, regardless of the course of study.
3. When I graduated there were about 1700 institutions of higher education in the US. Recently there were 4800, which far exceeds the population growth. This growth is directly related to the untold billions poured into higher education by the US government. Institutions of higher education at the 5th and 6th tier were founded in response to the enormous flow of federal dollars into education, both in the form of grants and in the form of guaranteed loans. Many of these institutions are selling worthless degrees to parents who do not take the time to research the product they are buying. All institutions of higher education carefully track the federal budget in the US to base decisions on tuition and capital expenditures. Hence, the government finds itself in the position of Sisyphus, with the slope getting longer and longer.

This is what might be termed "...a self-licking ice cream cone...".

Its without a doubt an industry disguised as more. I look at some of the courses offered and just think "holding pen for unemployed".

Its also another debt problem.

https://www.ft.com/content/a272ee4c-...c-6d03d067f81f

[smac999]

Around here a year of morage is more $ then a cheap boat. That's what kills the middle class here. Nowhere to put it.

[Larry Florida]

Most young people are not in a family situation. They can hook up, live together etc. No need for a family boat. Not likely a single young gent can hook up on a sailboat. Times have changed.

[Alberg30Shill]

Originally Posted by daletournier

The middle class is the heart of a capitalist driven society, its vital that its protected, yet i agree with you its not what it was. My parents were the role model middle class, i believe it was a great era, possibly the luckiest, most productive, community orientated, family orientated genetation in history. They could dream and achieve through planning and sweat. they are in their late 70's now.

It wasn't the character of a generation, it was the fact that after the second world war they were living in the only major industrial nation that wasn't levelled in the 2nd world war. Who could fail to succeed in those circumstances?

[john61ct]

The macro economies are doing fine, it's the uneven distribution of the productivity gains, death of unions, toxic concentration of wealth that's killing the middle class and upward mobility.

Sheer greed at the top, abuse of power and propoganda

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Alberg30Shill

It wasn't the character of a generation, it was the fact that after the second world war they were living in the only major industrial nation that wasn't levelled in the 2nd world war. Who could fail to succeed in those circumstances?

Absolutely agree. I believe that it was a golden age, luck plays a role regarding time of your birth as well as country of birth. I also believe in the saying '' shirt sleeve to shirt sleeve in three generations'', there's a hunger that comes from not having much, but match that hunger to a time of great opportunity and magic happens. By the third generation hunger doesn't exist, a generation that never learnt the lessons of previous generations, the generation founded on self help books and cappacinos . Mix this with a time of less opportunities and bad stuff happens.

I owned a fitness centre not that long back. People gave me money to, lift my heavy steel things of my floor, run on a rubber belt going no where and then pay me another $3 for a bottle of water on the wayout. My grandfather if alive today would be well over 100, he would've laughed his head off at the bazarness of the above, in his day people paided him to lift heavy things (brickee ) water come out of a tap and no one would pay to go running particularly in a room in the same spot.

Generations and times change.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by john61ct

The macro economies are doing fine, it's the uneven distribution of the productivity gains, death of unions, toxic concentration of wealth that's killing the middle class and upward mobility.

Sheer greed at the top, abuse of power and propoganda

Hi John, I don't think greed is exclusively a trait owned by the ones at the top. Easy access to credit has shown the middle class are just as greedy, and there humans last I looked.

'' most spend money they don't have on stuff they don't need''

Financial institutions gave them easy money, the individual is responsible for purchasing his 40 inch TV.

I also don't believe macro economics is doing just fine, but in fact I believe our current economic models a structurally broken. But this is a huge area that I do not claim to fully understand, but Im not really convinced many economists actually truly understand economics.. Lol. Most failed to predict the sub prime crash! Including Ben Bernanke!!!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Yes. It's difficult to find financing for a 20+ year old boat.

Even for many newer boats, the finance rate is 6%+ whereas autos can be as low as 0% and not likely higher than 3%.

From a purely financial perspective, if one has $20,000 cash and wants to spend a total of $100,000 the interest alone for boat vs. home is frightening.

I ran the numbers with the rates from my credit union. That $80k boat loan is going to cost $45,000. Same amount, same term for a home mortgage costs only $20,000. Then figure in depreciation or appreciation on each.
.

A couple of thoughts:
- If you need financing on a 20yr old boat, you can't afford the boat. I would argue it applies to new boats too but it's doubly true for old boats.
- 0% auto loans are not 0%. They just role the interest into the purchase price. It works out great because for the auto companies because if you try to pay it off early, they already have 100% of their interest.

Of course this thought process is a big part of the problem. If you stay out of debt, you constantly have more and more wealth available. If you constantly take out loans, you run in place.

[Fence Man]

Originally Posted by smac999

Around here a year of morage is more $ then a cheap boat. That's what kills the middle class here. Nowhere to put it.

This is a concern for me, as well. We are in NE FL, doing a little exploratory boat shopping, and the long term dockage is quite spendy. Is there a more cost efficient way to store a boat 9 months out of the year than $15/ft/month?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Way too long mate, and no 99% of that not relevant to me anyway.

...

And from a macro POV, no recessions in 25 years, those hapless bureaucrats are doing **something** right!

I agree, the post was way too long. It may well be good info but much beyond a full page on the screen and it's too long for a forum post. Not meant to be harsh but just a helpful hint.

25yrs doesn't mean anything. Politicians are rarely responsible for anything. They take the credit when things go well and deflect when they go bad. Australia got very lucky being mining oriented with huge mineral resources along with a modest population to be supported by those resources.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Alberg30Shill

It wasn't the character of a generation, it was the fact that after the second world war they were living in the only major industrial nation that wasn't levelled in the 2nd world war. Who could fail to succeed in those circumstances?

X a Billion!!!!!!

The miracle was a byproduct of war. I don't think we want to re-create the miracle.
- 50-60's Europe and Japan were devastated and the Marshal Plan meant huge demand for American Manufacturing.
- By the 70's Europe and Japan were largely rebuilt and had industrial production back.
- Through the 80-90's, the BRICs came on strong.
- As time goes on, other nations have started to undercut the BRICs.

The golden era of basic labor being paid the modern equivalent of 6 figures is never to return.

[kchapin]

I have always wanted to sail- we had a little sailboat growing up and I loved it. I have never been able to afford it and am solidly middle class (I am a RN, husband in hospitality management). I have 3 teenage kids and student loans. I'll be honest- my Dad passed away in February and I used a little of the money I received and took lessons, got my basic certification, and joined their sailing club. I rarely used it because my inexperience made me incredibly nervous- especially because it was someone else's boat. About a month and a half ago I was talking to someone at work who has a small "trailer sailer".. and it sounded like so much less stress. She came across one on Craigslist for me for $1500 including trailer and so I bought it.... and I absolutely love it! It's a 1978 Lockett Newport Whitecap 18. I have already gained so much more confidence and experience. I am on it a couple of times a week as weather allows.

I am already anticipating an upgrade- I've always wanted to do longer trips... one of those far off dreams. My biggest problem? My husband is not that into it, and my kids are very busy. Friends always say they want to come but are never available. My son is 17 and loves it but he will be leaving for college in a year and I'll lose my "first mate". Solo sailing is not my favorite, and so far I haven't been successful at any attempt to solo sail my current boat.

So while that doesn't necessarily answer the question, those are my challenges, and I'm highly motivated to be on the water because I love it so much. I'm constantly begging people to come sail with me. Someone who isn't sure if they will be able to do it or if they will truly love it might give up a little more easily as their own set of challenges arises.

On a side note, I am learning why people say this is so expensive! First the trailer broke, then the motor literally fell off the transom while under sail and is currently living at the bottom of the sound, I had to leave it in the water at a friend's dock while figuring out the trailer situation and now this hurricane just came through. My uncle has a mooring system outside his house so we put it over there, (while he went out of town) his neighbor called this am to tell us it was sinking. Raced over to bail it out, then 4 hours later one of the side stays snapped and the mast was in the water...... [emoji28]

[dwedeking2]

While I agree with a lot of the economic analysis of the middle class I don't think it's a money thing. At least in North Florida I see a lot of money on the water, just all small power boats.

This might be a reason why older project boats aren't selling:

Home Depot Panics Over Millennials; Forced To Host Tutorials On Using Tape Measures, Hammering Nails

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by dwedeking2

While I agree with a lot of the economic analysis of the middle class I don't think it's a money thing. At least in North Florida I see a lot of money on the water, just all small power boats.

This might be a reason why older project boats aren't selling:

Home Depot Panics Over Millennials; Forced To Host Tutorials On Using Tape Measures, Hammering Nails

That could be it... I hadn't thought of it, but it makes sense... I grew up taking apart go-cart and motorcycle engines, riding a Vespa scooter and building tree houses...and all manners of back-yard forts...
but now kids aren't allowed out of the house, and even if you wanted to work on your own car, who can? Remember when we used to give our own cars tune-ups? No wonder the idea of a project inspires paralyzing trepidation instead of excitement. And then the cost of hiring someone else puts it out of reach. That doesn't bode well for the aging classic boats languishing around the world. Is the DIY an endangered species?