Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by siamese

People who believe common sense or simply turning away from all other vessels works for collision avoidance, are simply rationalizing being too lazy to learn the rules.

Bottom line, everyone is responsible to avoid a collision. Even if one is a "stand on" vessel.

[inspectr]

OK, 3 rules of the road
If they call "Starboard" we reply "Steel"
Don't hit anything
If collision is unavoidable, hit something cheap
Post 76 - search the classic collision between the Stockholm and the Andrea Doria (taught in Nav school to this Marine cadet and long retired Foreign Going Master)
The crux of this matter was that both vessels made small alterations of course expecting the other to respond and they steered into each other, if I recall properly from my 1967 second mates course, one sank with loss of life.
Its a classic example of the need to act early and definitively.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Snore

If you are going to say I am wrong, please do your homework! The cited text specifically calls Rule B. Did you read it? Here is a link https://www.starpath.com/navrules/COLREGS_Part_B.pdf

Only a fool would impede a large vessel on Gov Cut or any other tight channel.

Are you really a marine service provider? Do you really have a license? This is the second time you have authoritatively posted misinformation!

This is the conclusion that I have arrived at as well, but he does have a shirt with captain on it.

Originally Posted by markpierce

Bottom line, everyone is responsible to avoid a collision. Even if one is a "stand on" vessel.

I have always understood that this is the overriding bottom line, as I understand ultimately there is no right of way, ultimately everyone is required to avoid a collision.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

9(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

13(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in Rules 4 through 18, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being
overtaken.

There must be a difference between the words "shall not impede" and "keep out of the way" ... or the rules wouldn't use two different terms.

I take "impede" to mean to do anything that would require the ship to take any action (ie. to put it in a position of being the give way vessel) ... which means that to comply with rule 9 you are not allowed to be the overtaken boat, which makes rule 13 moot.

It is your responsibility to know that the ship is coming, and never be in its way in the first place, so it never has to decide how to overtake you.

Perhaps it is many years of dealing with CFR's, Gov regulations and COLREGS, but you need to read these documents slowly and with coffee.

COLREGS is not just for big ships and it is not a USCG generated document. COLREGS is an international standard that is the result of decades of maritime experience.

Please carefully read 13 again. You will see that it subjugates (subordinates) itself to "anything contained in Rules 4 through 18". Since rule 9 the "get out of the way rule" lies in the list of rules with primacy over 13, 9 prevails both in COLREGS and in common sense.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

The Danger signal is 5 short blasts and is only used when in sight of another vessel. Rule 34.
You do not use the danger signal going around a blind bend.

When going aground a blind bend, you sound 1 prolong blast, if there is a ship around the bend it should answer with 1 prolong blast. also Rule 34.

You'd have to be there in season when the dinghy fleets are out racing to understand.. as far as they are concerned everything gives way to them.. most cannot see past their nearest rival and the next mark.
Anyway.. I am gone.. enjoy folks..

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by requiem

Snore, you are citing Rule 9 (narrow channels), a rule that is overridden by Rule 13 (overtaking).

Are you perhaps thinking that "Notwithstanding anything contained in Rules 4 through 18" means "except for Rules 4 through 18"?

(Of course, should a collision occur in such a case, I'd assume the overtaking boat would be cited for violating Rule 13, and the smaller for violating Rule 9.)

Keep in mind the rather tricky difference between "not impeding" and "giving way". They are not the same at all, and so Rule 9 and the other Rules (including Rule 13) interact in a very complicated way. Neither Rule "trumps" the other.



Small vessels (and ALL sailing vessels) must stay out of narrow channels when being in them might impede a larger vessel. This is basic seamanship (Rule 2) besides the requirement of Rule 9.


However, if a risk of collision DOES arise for whatever reason, including violation of Rule 9 by the small vessel, the other Rules apply just like they would apply in open sea. It means that the large vessel must not run down the small vessel, and must give way to sail. It also means that the small vessel must stand on for a certain period of time to allow the larger vessel to give way, as bizarre as that sounds.


But standing on and giving way only takes place starting from the time that a risk of collision arises and until the collision cannot be prevented by the action of the give-way vessel alone (or at the option of the stand-on vessel, when the stand-on vessel has reasonable doubts about the intention or ability of the give way vessel to prevent the collision with his maneuver). So in reality, if you screw up and find yourself in a risk of collision situation with a large vessel in a narrow channel, you can skip standing on (because you have reasonable doubts about the ability of the larger vessel to give way), and get the heck back out of the channel.


But for the case under discussion -- the small vessel tacking up the narrow channel and impeding a large vessel should not be there -- violation of Rule 9. But the larger vessel must not run down the smaller vessel -- Rule 13 is fully in force. And once things get hairy enough that a collision is imminent, anyway both vessels must do everything they can to unwind the situation.


And at all times both vessels are obligated by Rule 2 to apply common sense and good seamanship and keep things safe. The small vessel tacking up the narrow channel when ship traffic is present is violating Rule 2, in addition to Rule 9. Typical WAFI behavior, observed every day in Poole Harbour and a million other places.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snore

. . . . Please carefully read 13 again. You will see that it subjugates (subordinates) itself to "anything contained in Rules 4 through 18". Since rule 9 the "get out of the way rule" lies in the list of rules with primacy over 13, 9 prevails both in COLREGS and in common sense.

I know why you might think this, but Rule 9 is not actually subordinated to Rule 13. Both Rules fully apply.


Rule 9 says specifically:


(ii). This Rule does not relieve the overtaking vessel of her obligation under Rule 13

But that does not mean that Rule 9 goes away when Rule 13 is in effect. Rule 8 specifically states the contrary:


Rule 8
. . .
(ii). A vessel required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel is not relieved of this obligation if approaching the other vessel so as to involve risk of collision and shall, when taking action, have full regard to the action which may be required by the Rules of this part.


(iii). A vessel the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with the Rules of this part when the two vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision.


.





This makes it entirely clear, that obligations to "not impede" (Rules 9 and 10) do not trump the give-way and stand-on Rules, nor vice-versa.



It sounds bizarre that you might be obligated at the same time to both "not impede" and also "stand on", but it's true. It makes more sense if you fully grasp that standing-on is nothing like having the right of way on land.

[Empty Pockets]

Originally Posted by Snore

Please carefully read 13 again. You will see that it subjugates (subordinates) itself to "anything contained in Rules 4 through 18". Since rule 9 the "get out of the way rule" lies in the list of rules with primacy over 13, 9 prevails both in COLREGS and in common sense.

In my reading of the language of the rule, you’re wrong. Notwithstanding, means despite, or regardless of, so rule 13 reads “ Regardless of anything in Rules 4 through 18”, so I believe Rule 13 prevails. Regardless of any previous rules, the vessel overtaking must remain clear.
I do agree that common sense says otherwise, but that’s another discussion...

[Lake-Effect]

I'm re-reading my Coastal Nav textbook, and it has a nice shorthand summary of the ColRegs which I thought appropriate for here:

• Keep Right
• Give Right
• Big is Right
• Nobody is Right

[Captain Graham]

I guess it boils down to what does the rules mean when they say shall not impede

It does not make sense that a normal operating sailboat sailing forward in a channel is considered to be impeding another vessel, just because the other vessel can go faster.

Remember when the rules say sailboat they mean any sailboat both small and large including large tall ships.

[Captain Graham]

I think we are discussed the Overtaken part of the Rules to death.

Lets move on to another part of the rules.

What vessels are considered Restricted in their Ability to Maneuver?
In General is means a vessel that is working and because of the nature of the work cannot maneuver away from the work area.
Examples are laying cable, dredging, servicing a buoy, etc.

Normal Towing is not considered RAM, it is considered just a power boat.

The rule (Rule 3) does give the Towing Vessel the ability to claim RAM privileges if his work severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.

[Snore]

Some of the posts here simply display a lack of experience on larger vessels. A small sailboat bucking a tide - with engine and sails- sometimes has a speed of 4-5 kts. With a slower SOG.

A large vessel being impacted by the same quartering or beam winds in a tight channel cannot be expected to do 4-5 knots SOG. Since the sailboat is under 20 meters, if it sails inside the marks it would be impeding the large vessel.

If it is a cruise ship you will be ORDERED out of the channel for security reasons. Same thing when a sub is coming in to Kings Bay(?) GA. They will order you out of the channel. Feel free to argue with the escort boats that have an automatic weapon mounted on the bow!

Anyone with actual experience, knows that these channels are generally 35-50 feet deep and that if you take the marks on the “wrong side” there is still over 30 feet.

Anyone who expects rule 13 to give them any relief is simply wrong.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Empty Pockets

In my reading of the language of the rule, you’re wrong. Notwithstanding, means despite, or regardless of, so rule 13 reads “ Regardless of anything in Rules 4 through 18”, so I believe Rule 13 prevails. Regardless of any previous rules, the vessel overtaking must remain clear.

I do agree that common sense says otherwise, but that’s another discussion...

Yes you are right. About the word “notwithstanding”.

I will still hang my hat on Rule 9 “get out of the way”. As posted above the ability to keep a reasonable speed is important for larger vessels.

[Randy]

Originally Posted by PLANET EXPRESS

It is a shame we need rules for things that I think would be common sense. Or we have become that stubborn. Big ships always have right of way as I do not want to be under them. Boats fishing I give wide birth, if I were them would greatly appreciate someone doing so, it’s a pain to bring in all that tackle in and then put it back out. Trawlers with nets out wow stay away from what a mess. If hailing a vessel with no reply that I may collide with they can go right on ahead I will alter my course to avoid. Isn’t it best to just do what’s needed to avoid one another as any collision is dangerous and can injure someone. Just slow down or speed up and try to avoid those close quarter situations.
Have empathy think of how you would like to be treated, and if it’s shouting about the regulations on the side of the channel after a collision then seek help!

The point of these rules is to organize the maneuvers so they are conducted safely and each vessel is able to anticipate the action of the other vessels in the area.
If your vessel is in a position that is required to "stand on" while the others "give way"; collisions may easily occur. Every vessel has obligations.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snore

Some of the posts here simply display a lack of experience on larger vessels. A small sailboat bucking a tide - with engine and sails- sometimes has a speed of 4-5 kts. With a slower SOG.

A large vessel being impacted by the same quartering or beam winds in a tight channel cannot be expected to do 4-5 knots SOG. Since the sailboat is under 20 meters, if it sails inside the marks it would be impeding the large vessel.

If it is a cruise ship you will be ORDERED out of the channel for security reasons. Same thing when a sub is coming in to Kings Bay(?) GA. They will order you out of the channel. Feel free to argue with the escort boats that have an automatic weapon mounted on the bow!

Anyone with actual experience, knows that these channels are generally 35-50 feet deep and that if you take the marks on the “wrong side” there is still over 30 feet.

Anyone who expects rule 13 to give them any relief is simply wrong.

There is no need to speculate on this -- the Rules cover this in black and white, in Rule 8 (ii).


Rule 8 (ii) says specifically say that Rule 9 continues to apply to the sailboat.


They also specifically say that Rule 13 continues to apply to the ship. Rule 8(ii) says that with regard to all of the give-way, stand-on Rules, and Rule 13 says that specifically with regard to Rule 13, for added emphasis.


So both Rules apply to the given situation.


I agree with you about the practical situation with small sailboats -- you simply need to stay out of the bloody channel when there is ship traffic. Rule 13 requires the ship to avoid running you down if you DO find yourself in that situation, but Rule 9 with the clarification in Rule 8(ii) says you STILL need to get yourself out of the bloody channel, even if the ship is trying to avoid you pursuant to Rule 13.


This is all written in black and white.




More complicated is if you are the Kruzenshtern with 6.8 meters of draft. The Kruzenshtern is not allowed to sail in the narrow channel and impede motor driven ship traffic -- Rule 9 applies to ANY vessel under sail of any size.


What that means practically is that Kruzenshtern must either stay out of the channel OR if that is impossible because of the 6.8 meters of draft, then put the motor on and become a motor vessel. This is eminently reasonable if you think about it.