Is it right and fair to live aboard a vessel that cannot navigate?

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by TCM1968

Who you think pays for the clean up of all the mess after a hurricane for all the destruction to property on land? Why should boat owners be held to a different standard? Do you think all the owners of the trailers in trailer parks all over Florida come in and clean up the mess on their own dime every time a light breeze blows one of those over?

One bad act does not justify another bad act.

Without getting too political I can still remember the first hurricane I went through in 1954; not to mention my grandparents telling me about the 1935 hurricane did to their home in Miami. No one paid for the roof to be replaced; they did it themselves.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by sailhand

SNIP
Sorry I dont get where people with money feel more entitled than the rest of us, maybe they should consider that we might consider them a blight on society to be gotten rid of . That would definitely improve society and the environment and the waterways. Imagine no moron in a 60 foot power boat burning 500 litres of diesel a side throwing up 6 foot wakes everywhere, now that would be bliss why dont we ban those people. Now that I would vote for in a heartbeat

I have no love for a '60 foot power boat burning 500 litres of diesel a side throwing up 6 foot wakes everywhere' but you forgot to mention they do it while on auto pilot.

Problem I have is why you think anyone is entitled to money from 'people with money' so they can live as they wish.

More than once I have lowered my inflatable, started the outboard, and zoomed off to deal with a boat in the harbor that was adrift, or out of control. Also try and help out when I can. But that is of my own accord; not because someone thinks they should be able to take my money because they have less.

[Jammer]

Everyone

It was not my goal for us to reprise the derelict boat discussion. Nor was it my goal for us to reprise the conflict over the eons of the proletariat vs. the bourgeois.

Those discussions are predictable and tiresome. Could we please stop.


This discussion is about boats that are (quite possibly at least) well maintained. Ones that are perhaps finely built. Ones that are, in some cases, quite new. But boats that, by design or circumstance, are not capable of navigation. Boats belonging to and used by people from all walks of life, many of them well off financially. Boats, in some cases, being offered for rental on AirBnB and like places.



I have posted examples upthread.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by Jammer

It was not my goal for us to reprise the derelict boat discussion. Nor was it my goal for us to reprise the conflict over the eons of the proletariat vs. the bourgeois.

Threat drift is a time-honored tradition on cruisers forum. Much like herding cats thread drift will happen.

There are times when almost every boat cannot navigate. I lived aboard my boat while rebuilding my engine for many months. Was it wrong of me to do so. No, not at all.

If they are on anchor, on public waterways or paying for a slip I see nothing wrong with it. Yes if they tied up to your personal dock without compensation that would be wrong.

Well over 90% of boats in any Marina never go out in any year. In my Marine alone, on my dock I see four or five boats who's State registration is more than 2 years old. Life happens.

From my point of view I would rather see somebody living on a boat, then living on a street in a tent, or under an overpass in a cardboard box. But that's just me.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Everyone

It was not my goal for us to reprise the derelict boat discussion. Nor was it my goal for us to reprise the conflict over the eons of the proletariat vs. the bourgeois.

Those discussions are predictable and tiresome. Could we please stop.


This discussion is about boats that are (quite possibly at least) well maintained. Ones that are perhaps finely built. Ones that are, in some cases, quite new. But boats that, by design or circumstance, are not capable of navigation. Boats belonging to and used by people from all walks of life, many of them well off financially. Boats, in some cases, being offered for rental on AirBnB and like places.



I have posted examples upthread.

For as long as I can remember there have been high end house boats not capable of moving. Back when I was a kid there was a TV show "Surfside 6" about such a house boat. As time passed these boats wound up being more and more regulated. When I was in the Ft. Myers City Marina there was a house boat sorta like the one in this vid that was a chic beauty salon and had legit business licenses from the city. There were also some other what I call house boats in the marina that were well maintained.

Part of the problem with your question is that there were also some what I will call real, but broken down, boats not capable of navigation. One had to keep the bilge pump plugged into shore power 24/7 to keep afloat and even then it was listing. But the boat was paying it's bills. Never the less the marina wanted it moved out.

There was also some mooring balls out in the river which cost a little coin of the realm but allowed access to showers, dinghy dock, and the day room with wifi. Some boats also anchored close to the area and would use the dinghy dock, day room, and often ask for the combination to the showers.

As has been posted previously the real issue is where do you draw the line between something like the boat at Surfside 6 and a boat that has trouble staying afloat without shore power. One guy had an old cat he was converting from sail to power. While the boat was a little unsightly it did seem seaworthy and I guess the outboard setup he was working would make the boat able to navigate.

Ft. Myers City Marina was an interesting place. The office was centrally located and the West Side had what I would call the high end boats, then the office/showers/dayroom/store/fuel dock and then the East side with the lower end boats. I have noticed that several marinas I have been in have a similar good side and not so good side.

Another thing I have noticed is that while my Seawind qualified for the good side in Ft. Myers when I was at the Clearwater marina I was relegated to the not so good side. While I was treated well there, and viewed as a real sailor who had sailed to far away places (at least for Clearwater) my neighbor was on a power boat with a 65 inch color TV set up on the flying bridge which I could easily view from my cockpit; and so could he. My understanding was that boat never moved, and it certainly did not in the two weeks I was there. For those of you who know anything about sports fishing there was also a Yellowfin 32 there; it was the tender for a 110 foot custom motor boat.

The point is that while each of us can assess which live aboards can be justified I doubt that we would all wind up with the same list. The boat next to the 65 inch color TV was a similar in size boat. As I was sitting in cockpit I over heard the owner talking to a mechanic about fixing the Detroit Diesel engines on the boat; seems they were not working. The mechanic gave him an estimate of $US28,000 for one engine and said the other would likely cost more. The guy ran his law firm from the boat and did not impress me as a sailor; rather someone who was looking for a cheap water front office compared to the rent in close by high rises.

Florida is famous for high dollar marinas which have priced out a lot of boats like my Seawind that most here would view as a nice boat. Not to mention that a lot of marinas in Florida are being torn down to make way for high rise condos on the water.

It is all to easy to ignore the reality that market forces and an increase in the number of boats has changed the landscape.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwM-C8wfJMU

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

Well over 90% of boats in any Marina never go out in any year. In my Marine alone, on my dock I see four or five boats who's State registration is more than 2 years old. Life happens.

From my point of view I would rather see somebody living on a boat, then living on a street in a tent, or under an overpass in a cardboard box. But that's just me.

My experience has been similar in terms of how many boats are used; most are dock queens. But in Florida the FWC walks the docks and checks some anchorages for boats with no registration. Problem is that while they can issue citations the process if time consuming and cumbersome.

I am of two minds about being homeless on dirt or on the water. Since 2012 when I first came to BKH there have been multiple drownings in the harbor when a basically homeless person living on a boat fell overboard, tried to swim to the shore to the boat (or vice versa) or fell out of the tender. In most cases alcohol or drugs were involved. One really sad case was a very over weight elderly guy fell down in the small cockpit of his boat and since the mast was on down and the wheel took up a lot of the cockpit we had to remove the wheel to get him back up on his feed, into a tender, and to shore and the hospital to treat his broken arm. Not to mention taking care of his boat for the week or so while he recovered.

I try and help out as much as I can; but I did not sign up to babysit folks who can't take care of themselves or their boats. Maybe more to the point while I love the people in BKH I am always happy when I unhook from the ball and head down island. I am often anchored with no other boat in sight and problems like this simply don't exist.

[barnakiel]

You are 100% right where you notice part of the problem is many such boats are never visited or maybe once a year.


I think we would all be better off if people were not allowed to own stuff they do not use.


Very easy to solve with taxation. The challenge is that boat building lobby would eat the politician who suggests such a tax alive.



With shoes on.



b.

[Secondshift]

While the simple easy answer is of course; where you are, what it is and obviously, who you ask (What fun would that be ?). Your reiteration came well after the" cats were out of the bag" so to speak.

One last meow....

I believe in freedom and liberty for all.
Marginalizing the rich doesn't follow with the whole
"Respect all, fear none" thing.
Their higher taxed housing helps afford many niceties I enjoy here locally. And at the local governmental level anyway, our officials know their jobs depend on the popular vote.
Regarding boating inconsiderations it's a few bad apples on both sides of the financial spectrum.

Best Roargards,

[cj88]

If it floats on its own and poses no safety or environmental risk then it's fine by me whether it can move under its own power or not. Like any boat though, it should have the required navigation lights, safety equipment, etc. Cruisers have no more right to space on the water than someone who never moves and aesthetics or someones view being disturbed is irrelevant. If it's a hazard or abandoned then, by all means, remove it. People should be able to choose to live in alternative dwellings to what is seen as the norm by many and may choose to do so for any number of reasons. The real concerns should be focused on whether it is safe and hygenic to do so and not damaging to the environment that it is in.

[Buzzman]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

It isn't really. It's just that since we are boaters we like to believe when we anchor out that we are more righteous than a bum living under a bridge. Some bums living under a bridge do a real good job of keeping their tent and area in nice picked up condition and some don't, just like anchored out boaters.

Based on the crap I see in some people's yards, there's plenty of "bums" living in houses who don't pick up after themselves, unlike most boaters....

Just sayin'...

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by Smokeys Kitchen

Good quote Tellie - have not heard this one - is that you or did you pluck it from somewhere?

Two beers and I get all kinds of creative.

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by boatman61

My experience of Amsterdam and other cities in the Nederlands is the majority of these boats you allege block the view rarely are above street level.. you have to go down steps to board them.
In Europe we call this Picturesque..

Yeah, but who would want to scrap their hull in that water?

[ctskip]

Can you move a cave?
Can you move your apartment?
Can you move you mega mansion?
In many parts of the world they live in houses built on floating docks? Not all can afford floating homes along California’s coast.
You can move the homeless from one bridge to another and they keep coming back..

Does this answer your question

[Buzzman]

Grey Nomads = snowy-haired snails

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by quackedo

I think you are misreading the statutes your are using here. I have had a lot of experience dealing with state, municipality and federal government agencies as I own a marina for the past 20 years and have all necessary permits in place.
As it was explained to me by the Feds:
“Whenever anyone other than a federal Agent gets to the place where their toes get wet, they are out of their jurisdiction.”
Municipalities and States are allowed to apply to the Fed for only two things in Navigable Waters:
First: Speed Limit Zones. (The federal Agent I was dealing with used this as one of the reasons why they don’t relinquish rights to navigable waters to the other entities as “They don’t know how to write laws for Navigable waters. It has nothing to do with speed. You are responsible for your wake no matter what your speed is. If you cause damage at 4 knots in a 10 mile per hour “Speed Zone”, you are responsible for the damage. Speed zones are silly.”


Second: A mooring field which the Feds will issue a permit for after they specifically delineate all boundaries and types and amounts of Moorings.


That’s it. They are 100% in charge of all Navigable Waterways.


That is how they forced Florida to remove all their Anchoring laws, etc. from the entire state in the recent court case that Florida lost completely.
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If you are correct, I would think Washington State can't enforce their recently enacted NDZ in Puget Sound, Admiralty Inlet and the Eastern Strait of Juan de Fuca.


https://ecology.wa.gov/Water-Shoreli...discharge-zone