Gender roles in sailing and cruising

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by cyan

Well, to be fair, you deleted the last part of my paragraph.
Let me re-phrase...
Consider a woman who does NOT like to fix and command a sailboat, yet still LOVES to sail on said sailboat whilst reading and dolphin-gazing.
Might such a woman not find it quite annoying to hear a feminist suggest that her choices are partially the result of gender bias in her upbringing and in her society?

Why would anyone be offended at another person's choices? Why is this still such a touchy subject? No one is telling your wife her choices are wrong. My original comments go back to women who want to learn how to sail better yet they refer to their "husband's boat" and were shocked when I suggested taking the boat out with friends in which she would be the one making decisions. Perhaps it comes down to some women being adverse to risk. Risk taking is very much a part of our DNA (https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/...g-a-daredevil/). For some, the pressures on a woman to keep her from stepping outside of her comfort zone are significant ("don't walk alone at night" or "why would you want to do that" or "here, let me do it; you could hurt yourself"). Not to mention that we might not have role models.

So is your wife someone who enjoys taking risks and trying new things, or is she someone who is more cautious and would rather read a book while sailing? Neither is a "wrong" answer. But if she's been frustrated about wanting to do something that she is physically capable of doing, then you have to wonder what's holding her back. That's not her DNA talking.

And what's up with calling women feminists in the pejorative sense when they don't agree with you?

[darylat8750]

Originally Posted by gamayun

I'll ask this in a different way. How many of the guys here would say their wives/girlfriends/partners are comfortable taking the boat out without you. I'm a female and I'm just calling it as I see it from the other side. If she doesn't have the skills/confidence/time behind the wheel and it's just the two of you cruising together, than I'm asking why is this?

In our case my wife of 47 years just has no interest in "playing with machinery" while I do. If something breaks I'm the one head down in the engine room while she minds the store. She typically is the helms person for anchoring or picking up a bouy and stands a watch when it is required or just makes sense. She is capable of taking the boat out by herself with friends but I would be pleasantly surprised (actually amazed!) if she ever did.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

There are plenty of twin studies which address this nurture vs nature question. I forget the bottom line number off hand, but they find DNA accounts for something like 40% of personal traits. It’s the basis for the whole discussion regarding the nature of free will and whether it really exists.

I’m in NO WAY suggesting DNA drives or excuses sexism in our societies. DNA also suggests we are all natural born killers, but part of civilization is to work against some of our basic instincts.

As I said, while genetic, biology and sociological research shows males and females have different statistical strengths, the same research shows the overlap between the male/female traits graphs are largely complete. So while there are statistical tendencies, it is practically irrelevant where the individual is concerned.

I love your thoughtful posts. Not sure I understand your last paragraph.

[gamayun]

Ah nevermind. I just read that article you posted previously. Good one!

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by darylat8750

In our case my wife of 47 years just has no interest in "playing with machinery" while I do. If something breaks I'm the one head down in the engine room while she minds the store. She typically is the helms person for anchoring or picking up a bouy and stands a watch when it is required or just makes sense. She is capable of taking the boat out by herself with friends but I would be pleasantly surprised (actually amazed!) if she ever did.

This is lovely. It sounds as if you both are quite capable, have different interests and talents, and are happy with each other's choices in the support of a well functioning life onboard. Isn't this what epitomizes a good relationship?

Ah, but -- is the boat in her name, too?

Just kidding!!! That was the OP's original question. I don't think this matters except for legal issues with the estate.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by gamayun

Why would anyone be offended at another person's choices?

That was not suggested by me, nor do I have an answer there. The "offense" that I suggested was on the part of the woman listening to the feminist's suggestions that the listener's choices were in part (and unfortunately) directed by society.

Originally Posted by gamayun

So is your wife someone who enjoys taking risks and trying new things, or is she someone who is more cautious and would rather read a book while sailing? Neither is a "wrong" answer.

My wife grew up as a tomboy, rebuilding motorcycles with her big brother. Before I met her, she gave up a lucrative financial career with advanced degrees in order to pursue her true love: cooking. She took a huge pay cut to become a professional chef and with a grin, never looked back. At the drop of a hat with wild eyes she adopted my dream of sailing the world, with even more vigor. Her favorite spot is lounging in the cockpit with me doing the sailing. Yes, she can turn the boat around, and yes this free spirit would be annoyed at the suggestion that her decision to chill while I do more of the sailing are at all influenced by the way she was raised or societal pressure.
(and nobody cares what is considered a "wrong" answer.)

As a contrast, my daughter is my fix-it buddy who absorbed every tool-wielding skill that I taught her.

Originally Posted by gamayun

And what's up with calling women feminists in the perjorative sense when they don't agree with you?

Your spelling is atrocious. (THAT was pejorative. )
There was honestly no contempt intended in my use of the word "feminist". This is simply a generic label to describe a person whose ideology and motivation is founded in the idea of gender equality. Frankly, I find this laudable. However, your posts have suggested that women don't have an equal amount of sailing experience as their male partner because the man does not let them. Your redundant questions about MOB competance among female sailing partners women and the comfort level of them taking the boat out are clear. Your description of a polite debate as an "attack" when it went against your beliefs is clear. Your ideology is clear.

Honestly, I kind of dig your style, gamayun. If you were closer, I'd probably even offer to drop in (with my daughter) for boat project help. I hope to meet you one day on the sea. Just don't dare suggest to my wife that her cooking and chilling onboard should contain more sailing experience.
She'll rip your head off.

[JPA Cate]

mmmmcyan, I'm the one that beats the drum that women should learn to do all the things essential to saving themselves if the skipper is lost or injured, not gamayun, don't blame her for my bad. Fortunately, mostly, I don't offer up opinions face to face, unless asked. Sometimes writing on the forum is different. My opinion is that people should learn the skills to make a good effort at saving their partner and to be able to save themselves and the boat. Your wife doesn't have to subscribe to it. But I think my reasons are sound, and am not a shrinking violet about expressing it.

The forum is a very different venue, because for everyone who actually joins and posts, there are 20-30 additional readers out there. I would prefer for those mystery folks to at least hear all the many views offered, to think about them, and decide what they will do, with as full input as possible.



Ann

[cyan]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

mmmmcyan, I'm the one that beats the drum that women should learn to do all the things essential to saving themselves if the skipper is lost or injured, not gamayun, don't blame her for my bad

No, I was actually addressing gamayun who was definitely beating the same drum. Over and over. I'm not even calling it bad, because I agree with the idea that the female partner should be able to save the MOB as well as herself. It was gamayun who kept asking this question again after 7 people had already answered. That becomes more of a statement than a question, IMO.

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Fortunately, mostly, I don't offer up opinions face to face, unless asked. Sometimes writing on the forum is different. My opinion is that people should learn the skills to make a good effort at saving their partner and to be able to save themselves and the boat. Your wife doesn't have to subscribe to it. But I think my reasons are sound, and am not a shrinking violet about expressing it.
...
Ann

Perhaps I was not clear. My wife DOES subscribe to the concept of saving herself and her partner, at any cost. She demonstrates this often, in more MOB drills than most. Does anyone else practice a dead-weight halyard haul in their MOB drill? We do. Two-handed sailing dictates experience for both. Everyone has to sleep. It would be a big mistake to assume that the petite woman reading the book cannot single-hand the boat. She prefers NOT to sail when I am awake. Her choice. So what? She also demonstrates competency in the 3:00am squall drill and can scamper to the foredeck on a lean with the grace and speed of a spider monkey. I married a younger athletic woman. I'm safe with her.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

One of the documented differences between male human brains and those of the female is that, on average, more cells are devoted to sound location in men's brains than female's. What this means is that if you're a woman, and a male tells you that he thinks that "clunk" came from the port quarter, then that's gotta be the first place to look. Their directional location is better than ours. The point is, appreciate each other's (if you're in a couple relationship) strong suits. Use them well. You only go around once, so far as we know for sure.

Yes, and women tend to have better senses of smell. So, when my Ann says she smells propane, I listen!

There are numerous traits which are statistically stronger or weaker in the sexes. The physical ones cause us no real problems. The mental and psychological ones are where we challenge our vision for a pure equal society.

There are real and measurable statistical differences between males and females when taken at a population level. But for the vast majority of these traits, the sexes’ range of what is ‘normal’ significantly overlaps each other. This means that it is virtually impossible to conclude much about any individual.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by cyan

No, I was actually addressing gamayun who was definitely beating the same drum. Over and over. I'm not even calling it bad, because I agree with the idea that the female partner should be able to save the MOB as well as herself. It was gamayun who kept asking this question again after 7 people had already answered. That becomes more of a statement than a question, IMO.


Perhaps I was not clear. My wife DOES subscribe to the concept of saving herself and her partner, at any cost. She demonstrates this often, in more MOB drills than most. Does anyone else practice a dead-weight halyard haul in their MOB drill? We do. Two-handed sailing dictates experience for both. Everyone has to sleep. It would be a big mistake to assume that the petite woman reading the book cannot single-hand the boat. She prefers NOT to sail when I am awake. Her choice. So what? She also demonstrates competency in the 3:00am squall drill and can scamper to the foredeck on a lean with the grace and speed of a spider monkey. I married a younger athletic woman. I'm safe with her.

Perhaps you've missed the substance of my redundant point, Cyan. Your wife sounds competent and capable and knows how to sail as well as demonstrate good MOB skills. Why would I question how she chooses to behave on her boat when she wants to chill? I'm really struggling to understand the conflict in what either of us is saying.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by cyan

. . . your posts have suggested that women don't have an equal amount of sailing experience as their male partner because the man does not let them. Your redundant questions about MOB competance among female sailing partners women and the comfort level of them taking the boat out are clear. Your description of a polite debate as an "attack" when it went against your beliefs is clear. Your ideology is clear.

Honestly, I kind of dig your style, gamayun. If you were closer, I'd probably even offer to drop in (with my daughter) for boat project help. I hope to meet you one day on the sea. Just don't dare suggest to my wife that her cooking and chilling onboard should contain more sailing experience.
She'll rip your head off.

This is the same impression I'm left with too (both negative & positive), and ironically my negative impression seems to be the product of the same sort of stereotyping and unsupported assumptions that Gamayun and some others who have posted complain about. Fortunately, and if this thread is at all representative of the cruising world generally, there have been many females & males posting about their own experiences which contradict the relative few who believe that sexism is so pervasive.

Based on my own experience being raised by strong, independent women, and then being drawn to such women in adult life, I think the pushback from some of us guys comes from being lumped together with individual males truly deserving of scorn. It's a two-way street, of course, and I know I've been guilty at times of resorting to broad stereotypes to vent my frustration with individual women. But when the understandable super-sensitivity Ann C. speaks of turns into hyper-sensitivity -- to the point where an otherwise well-intentioned guy has to worry about expressing too much praise for a woman's sailing accomplishments or running over to grab a line to help her dock -- then I don't think much progress is being made to quell stereotypes & advance an otherwise worthy cause.

Originally Posted by gamayun

Ah, but -- is the boat in her name, too?

Just kidding!!! That was the OP's original question. I don't think this matters except for legal issues with the estate.

My take on this is that you're only partially kidding. In fact, you've made it clear that this was a factor in explaining why your female sailing students were reluctant to take "their husband's boats" out on their own. As Cyan has pointed out, you have attributed this reluctance to their male partners not allowing them to do so, or maybe convincing them they're not capable. This might be true, but you haven't indicated that you actually know, and your assuming it speaks less about what may be true and more about the lens you're judging these women (and their male partners) through.

In the instant case of a 47 year-old marriage, and in many others of any reasonable length (at least in the US), the reality is that it wouldn't matter who's name the boat was in as it would be presumptively deemed to be owned equally by both. In the event of divorce, death, or incapacity (potentially) that is, with narrowly prescribed exceptions (inheritance, segregated funds, etc.).

What I think Jammer was referencing in his first post was a document showing that the surviving female partner had full authority to take possession and operate the boat when her name was not listed on the boat's title documentation. Probably a good idea in some countries with different laws in this area, but also not necessarily dispositive of ownership. These are two separate issues.

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Exile

Based on my own experience being raised by strong, independent women, and then being drawn to such women in adult life, I think the pushback from some of us guys comes from being lumped together with individual males truly deserving of scorn. It's a two-way street, of course, and I know I've been guilty at times of resorting to broad stereotypes to vent my frustration with individual women. But when the understandable super-sensitivity Ann C. speaks of turns into hyper-sensitivity -- to the point where an otherwise well-intentioned guy has to worry about expressing too much praise for a woman's sailing accomplishments or running over to grab a line to help her dock -- then I don't think much progress is being made to quell stereotypes & advance an otherwise worthy cause.

^^Yes.

Doesn't mean we can't keep looking for the underlying reasons we feel we need to pushback though.

And I really do feel sailing/cruising/boating is still pretty sexist. And white. But only in broad terms. Some of the coolest people I never thought I would like to know I have met out on the water. But it doesn't change the fact that I know more women rock climbers than I do women sailors. The question is why?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

^^Yes.

Doesn't mean we can't keep looking for the underlying reasons we feel we need to pushback though.

And I really do feel sailing/cruising/boating is still pretty sexist. And white. But only in broad terms. Some of the coolest people I never thought I would like to know I have met out on the water. But it doesn't change the fact that I know more women rock climbers than I do women sailors. The question is why?

I linked to some stats in another thread awhile ago that showed that more women are now graduating from, to cite a couple of examples, law & veterinary schools than men. But we just saw someone post that women only comprise 20% of graduates from engineering schools. Is this sufficient to support a conclusion that the admissions depts. at engineering schools are sexist? Other than the comparatively fewer women who both own & captain their own boats, how do you similarly conclude that the world of "sailing/cruising/boating is still pretty sexist?"

Is it also racist because, as you correctly point out, it is predominantly white? How about the NBA? Is it also racist because it is predominantly black?

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Exile

I linked to some stats in another thread awhile ago that showed that more women are now graduating from, to cite a couple of examples, law & veterinary schools than men. But we just saw someone post that women only comprise 20% of graduates from engineering schools. Is this sufficient to support a conclusion that the admissions depts. at engineering schools are sexist? Other than the comparatively fewer women who both own & captain their own boats, how do you similarly conclude that the world of "sailing/cruising/boating is still pretty sexist?"

Is it also racist because, as you correctly point out, it is predominantly white? How about the NBA? Is it also racist because it is predominantly black?

Dunno.

But I do know if we don't ask ourselves these questions we never will know the answers.

... ...

Ok, I think I will take a swing at the NBA thing...or the NFL thing for that matter. I admit all I know about those two leagues is what I have seen on tv and in movies, but it seems a pretty well established trope that football and basket ball are seen as one of the few ways to get out of the cycle of poverty and oppression and "make" something of yourself. So in a sense, yes, the system that underlies pro sports in the US is "racist." Is the kind of horrid racism that goes along with white hoods and burning crosses? No. Is it something we need to "deal with" right now? IMHO, no. But is it systemic and should it be considered as part of the broader view of a society? Ya..I think so.

[atmartin]

Yachting is a wealth thing. We could start a new, super-contentious thread on the subject. This is a very expensive hobby. Even younger, budget cruisers, usually come from middle-class families and have college educations. They have a social safety net to fall back on. There's an ocean of difference between choosing to 'live simple' and being forced to.