Gender roles in sailing and cruising

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

Dunno.

But I do know if we don't ask ourselves these questions we never will know the answers.

I'm good with asking & discussing, but that's not what you just did when you stated that your belief that the cruising world is "still pretty sexist." Neither was the poster who claimed that sexism was so rampant that he and his wife were considering bailing out. I'm not arguing it is not sexist to some degree because I don't know. It just seems rather incongruous since a big part of the motivation is to travel, see new places, meet new people, experience different cultures. Generally speaking this sort of motivation requires curiosity, tolerance, and open-mindedness, which is why I wholeheartedly agree with your comment that "some of the coolest people I never thought I would like to know I have met out on the water."

... ...

Ok, I think I will take a swing at the NBA thing...or the NFL thing for that matter. I admit all I know about those two leagues is what I have seen on tv and in movies, but it seems a pretty well established trope that football and basket ball are seen as one of the few ways to get out of the cycle of poverty and oppression and "make" something of yourself. So in a sense, yes, the system that underlies pro sports in the US is "racist." Is the kind of horrid racism that goes along with white hoods and burning crosses? No. Is it something we need to "deal with" right now? IMHO, no. But is it systemic and should it be considered as part of the broader view of a society? Ya..I think so.

That's like saying the US military is also racist because a disproportionate number of economically disadvantaged minorities sign up. But the reality is that the US military has become one of the most egalitarian institutions around (at least when it comes to race), primarily because it is (and has to be) merit-based. So I think you should make a distinction between the institution, occupation, or activity itself vs. the "system that underlies it." The latter is an entirely different issue that I doubt the mods would appreciate us getting into.

Getting back on point, all I've seen cited thus far to support claims of sexism in the cruising world are anecdotal observations of women being afraid of taking out boats on their own, the oft-observed men shouting at their female partners during docking maneuvers (along with plenty of men who shout at male crew I should add), and men who reportedly direct discussions more towards other men vs. women when it comes to mechanical or technical issues. Given other plausible, gender-neutral explanations for these behaviors, can or should we nevertheless conclude that the cruising world is "still pretty sexist?" Do you think women like Jessica Watson, Laura Dekker, Jeanne Socrates, or the women listed in the following article would agree? https://www.ybw.com/features/eight-t...e-sailors-1410

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Exile

[COLOR="Navy"]That's like saying the US military is also racist because a disproportionate number of economically disadvantaged minorities sign up.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by atmartin

Yachting is a wealth thing. We could start a new, super-contentious thread on the subject. This is a very expensive hobby. Even younger, budget cruisers, usually come from middle-class families and have college educations. They have a social safety net to fall back on. There's an ocean of difference between choosing to 'live simple' and being forced to.

And there are plenty of other, mostly older, retired cruising couples, who have simply made choices -- like selling their only significant asset, i.e. their home -- to make it happen. But if you're equating being wealthy with being middle class then yes, "yachting is a wealth thing." But so are many other activities, hobbies, pursuits that poor people cannot afford. Suggesting these activities are therefore racist doesn't make much sense unless ideologically driven.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

LOL, MacBlaze. And point well taken.

Please excuse my stridency but the current fashion of tossing such claims of sexism, racism, etc. around runs the risk of such claims not being taken seriously when the stakes are much higher.

[atmartin]

Originally Posted by Exile

And there are plenty of other, mostly older, retired cruising couples, who have simply made choices -- like selling their only significant asset, i.e. their home -- to make it happen. But if you're equating being wealthy with being middle class then yes, "yachting is a wealth thing." But so are many other activities, hobbies, pursuits that poor people cannot afford. Suggesting these activities are therefore racist doesn't make much sense unless ideologically driven.

You don't have to be wealthy, but you do need wealth (or assets, if you prefer). Something like 1 in 5 Americans has negative net worth. Net worth increases dramatically with age, so a pretty strong correlation to the average age of boat owners. I regret even mentioning "middle-class" since that definition varies from person-to-person, with most of us describing ourselves as "middle-class" when pressed.

Where we end up in these arguments has a lot to do with first premises. Some will assume that people blaming sexism (or discrimination, in general) are lazy "victims". Others will take their complaints as reflecting some reality. Personally, I don't think any healthy person wants to be a victim. Therefore, when women express frustration about sexism, I try to take them seriously, rather than dismiss them as whiners or ideologues. It's pretty obvious from daily experience that people's assumptions about me (white male) are very different than their assumptions about my partner (asian female). We've been together 13 years and share the same values, skills and interests, but she has to prove herself in ways that I don't. But that's just me and I could be wrong.

That's not to say sponges and social parasites don't exist. Every family seems to have at least one, but they aren't exclusively one gender.

[JPA Cate]

To the issue of who can move the boat if the Captain is not there....

Back in the years when Jim and I were cruising Mexico, their laws stated that only the First Mate would move the boat in the Captain's absence. Hence, our boat cards of the time included me, labeled as First Mate.

Fwiw, if you are an unmarried couple, if your partner dies or is incapacitated, you have no joint property rights, unless there is a will which gives you an inheritance. I've written about this before, so will keep this brief, but it can happen that you lose your partner and your home at the same time, because blood relations are the inheritors, not you.

Ann

[Exile]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

To the issue of who can move the boat if the Captain is not there....

Back in the years when Jim and I were cruising Mexico, their laws stated that only the First Mate would move the boat in the Captain's absence. Hence, our boat cards of the time included me, labeled as First Mate.

Fwiw, if you are an unmarried couple, if your partner dies or is incapacitated, you have no joint property rights, unless there is a will which gives you an inheritance. I've written about this before, so will keep this brief, but it can happen that you lose your partner and your home at the same time, because blood relations are the inheritors, not you.

Ann

A surviving partner may or may not have an ownership interest as you say, but that may be a separate issue from whether that same partner is authorized to move the boat or continue living on it until the ownership issue is settled.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by atmartin

Where we end up in these arguments has a lot to do with first premises. Some will assume that people blaming sexism (or discrimination, in general) are lazy "victims".

Such labels only perpetuate an unfortunate and usually false stereotype. The only references to "lazy" I recall reading in this thread are as possible explanations for why some women (and men in some cases I'm sure) do not take on some of the more significant responsibilities of boat maintenance & operation. Probably true in some cases, but probably not the majority.

Others will take their complaints as reflecting some reality. Personally, I don't think any healthy person wants to be a victim.

Of course not. But many find solace or even power in their victimization. Two different things, the former outside their control (generally speaking), whereas the latter is how one responds internally, with greater or lesser degrees of self-control. I'm not suggesting victimization may not be justified or injuries suffered not real & long-lasting, only that that perpetual victimization often becomes unhealthy for both the victim as well as others in their lives. For starters, there is often a tendency to blame -- or at least be wary of -- entire groups based on the actions of individual bad actor(s). In my experience & opinion, that can lead to seriously biased misjudgments about people that are harmful to all concerned.

Therefore, when women express frustration about sexism, I try to take them seriously, rather than dismiss them as whiners or ideologues.

So do I, especially when it's obviously intentional & transparent, as for example the sorts of name-calling Gamayun reported being subjected to. I only object when such bad intentions cannot be ascertained, and assumptions & stereotypes are then made in order to bolster already biased personal beliefs about entire categories of people. I don't think this is neither fair nor productive towards the goal of eliminating such discrimination in all its forms.

It's pretty obvious from daily experience that people's assumptions about me (white male) are very different than their assumptions about my partner (asian female). We've been together 13 years and share the same values, skills and interests, but she has to prove herself in ways that I don't. But that's just me and I could be wrong.

How so? And do you feel your partner is burdened on account of her race or her gender, or both?

[CaptainDana]

Seems like the OP had an agenda. There is only one captain on a boat. When the weather is scary, the boat is broken, and/or rocks loom ahead, the crew looks to the captain for reassurance that the boat and crew will survive. Up to that point, the captain has to demonstrate that he is competent and that he has maintained the boat so that both can be trusted to carry the crew to safety. There are good captains and there are bad captains. I'm not yet as good as I think I need to be BUT I am the captain and I alone bear responsibility for the life and safety of every soul aboard. The Coast Guard and the insurance companies also see it that way. So, truth be told, egalitarian democracy ain't how it works.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by CaptainDana

...the captain has to demonstrate that he is competent and that he has maintained the boat....

Who exactly did you mean by "he"?

He, he

[CaptainDana]

Doh! My mistake. Certainly I've met better captains than myself who are female. He or she.

[darylat8750]

Originally Posted by gamayun

This is lovely. It sounds as if you both are quite capable, have different interests and talents, and are happy with each other's choices in the support of a well functioning life onboard. Isn't this what epitomizes a good relationship?

Ah, but -- is the boat in her name, too?

Just kidding!!! That was the OP's original question. I don't think this matters except for legal issues with the estate.

The boat is owned by an LLC and she is an officer of the LLC. Does that count?

[Rick486]

Originally Posted by Hobiehobie

Have two friends who are a male/female couple who were professional crew on a 125' motor yacht. At the dock the guy was nearly always addressed as Captain, and questions and explanations aimed at him.

He would consistently explain that his partner was the Captain and he was First Mate. A few enlightened souls would switch their attention to the Captain, but many more would/could not. Some even would not believe that the guy could not be senior in the Captain crew relationship and would laugh at the situation.

Situation is getting better in some places, but as a whole there is a long way to go.

I am half of a male couple crew, so don't face that kind of presumption.

Reminds me of a time I was waiting for a flight and the crew were waiting also as our aircraft had not arrived. The captain was a smallish, blond woman with long hair in a pony tail. Those 4 stripes were very prominent on her shoulder boards. Standing with them was a tall, young man who was a flight attendant, in uniform. Well, the gate agent (a woman) came over to ask some questions which were obviously operational. She walks over to the flight attendant and begins asking him some questions. The flight attendant looked a bit sheepish and obviously told the gate agent that she needed to talk to the captain, to his right. The gate agent looked very unhappy to walk over and talk to the captain, a woman. I was frankly amazed, but have been told that this type of behavior by women is not at all unusual.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Rick486

Reminds me of a time I was waiting for a flight and the crew were waiting also as our aircraft had not arrived. The captain was a smallish, blond woman with long hair in a pony tail. Those 4 stripes were very prominent on her shoulder boards. Standing with them was a tall, young man who was a flight attendant, in uniform. Well, the gate agent (a woman) came over to ask some questions which were obviously operational. She walks over to the flight attendant and begins asking him some questions. The flight attendant looked a bit sheepish and obviously told the gate agent that she needed to talk to the captain, to his right. The gate agent looked very unhappy to walk over and talk to the captain, a woman. I was frankly amazed, but have been told that this type of behavior by women is not at all unusual.

Don't try to read too much into it. Lots of women do not like losing face, and the agent made a serious error, knew it, and felt very up tight.

Ann

[darylat8750]

Originally Posted by gamayun

This is lovely. It sounds as if you both are quite capable, have different interests and talents, and are happy with each other's choices in the support of a well functioning life onboard. Isn't this what epitomizes a good relationship?

Ah, but -- is the boat in her name, too?

Just kidding!!! That was the OP's original question. I don't think this matters except for legal issues with the estate.

For the OP's question the boat is owned by an LLC and we are both officers of the LLC. We also have business cards for travel out of the US that lists me as Ca. and her as FO. We also have shirts with Crew on them. I have no statistical data to confirm this but paperwork in other countries seems to go smoothly for us when neatly dressed.

As an aside we have a 12,000 pound 4 wheel drive tractor at our mountain property and she would rather I drive it but she handles that fine when required.