Gender roles in sailing and cruising

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by cyan

Why are 99% of all plumbers male? Is this sexism involving job discrimination and NURTURE? Or is this simply NATURE?

Funny, I still have the nature vs nurture argument sometimes. But the is no way in hell I would try to defend plumbing (or any kind of mechanical aptitude for the matter) as anything other than nurture. It just seem so obvious to me. But then I guess that's why it's still an ongoing argument..."obvious" just isn't very definitive.

[Cadence]

Not to post a bio. I've had peers and boss's boss's that have been female. 40 years ago. What is the problem. I tried to convince my girl Friday to try for management when they posted an opening.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

Funny, I still have the nature vs nurture argument sometimes. But the is no way in hell I would try to defend plumbing (or any kind of mechanical aptitude for the matter) as anything other than nurture. It just seem so obvious to me. But then I guess that's why it's still an ongoing argument..."obvious" just isn't very definitive.

Well we could probably agree that it's an interesting debate, anyway. I find it amusing that most writing on the subject of the lack female tradespersons will mention three factors:
1. It's a "dirty" job, and girls are unfortunately taught to avoid these.
2. It is mistakenly perceived to require greater physical strength.
3. There is generally a lack of information about all trades.

What's missing here? It has become SO taboo to even MENTION the possibility of natural gender differences. Did you just GENERALIZE?! Oh dear. Let's not do that. It will ultimately hurt the cause of gender equality, right?

This leaves the elephant in the room standing there. Comically. (shhhh, don't even look at him, much less talk about him)

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by cyan

... the possibility of natural gender differences. Did you just GENERALIZE?! Oh dear. Let's not do that. It will ultimately hurt the cause of gender equality, right?

The "possibility"... I'm sure there is a possibility, but I'll bet that unless you are under the age of 30 that you didn't grow up playing with Barbies and Easy Bake ovens. A tool kit? Maybe a science kit? Or just some toy guns and mandate to "get out and play." I really don't think we can in any way even suggest a possibility of gender differences coming down along the lines of having mechanical affinity and liking dirty jobs...not until we spend a lot less time programming our children (not that I actually believe we can achieve such a feat).

EDIT:

Oh, and I get just as fed up about your hypothetical elephant as you do. We should talk about this sh*t.

[rgranger]

Originally Posted by gamayun

I'll ask this in a different way. How many of the guys here would say their wives/girlfriends/partners are comfortable taking the boat out without you. I'm a female and I'm just calling it as I see it from the other side. If she doesn't have the skills/confidence/time behind the wheel and it's just the two of you cruising together, than I'm asking why is this?

Well my wife would not ever take the boat out without me nor do I think she could. She also has no interest in helping to operate the boat when undersway. She likes to be on the boat but usually curls up against the cabin with a good magazine and chills. Now my daughters are another story!!!!

They are all competent sailors. My next O.B. will have electric start and that will solve the last barrier for them to take the boat out without me.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

The "possibility"... I'm sure there is a possibility, but I'll bet that unless you are under the age of 30 that you didn't grow up playing with Barbies and Easy Bake ovens. A tool kit? Maybe a science kit? Or just some toy guns and mandate to "get out and play." I really don't think we can in any way even suggest a possibility of gender differences coming down along the lines of having mechanical affinity and liking dirty jobs...not until we spend a lot less time programming our children (not that I actually believe we can achieve such a feat).

EDIT:

Oh, and I get just as fed up about your hypothetical elephant as you do. We should talk about this sh*t.

I’ve read plenty of current research which suggests male and female brains are different in regard to what we might call innate ability. Some research places our brains on a empathizing-systemizing axis, with male brains leaning towards systemizing and females towards empathizing. The hypothesis, which is supported by a growing literature now, says this can explain some of the societal outcomes we see around sex representation.

Males and females are clearly biologically different, so I don’t think it should be heresy to say our brains will also be different. But as with most biological factors, our similarities are far greater than our differences.

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spr...different.html

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I’ve read plenty of current research which suggests male and female brains are different in regard to what we might call innate ability. Some research places our brains on a empathizing-systemizing axis, with male brains leaning towards systemizing and females towards empathizing. The hypothesis, which is supported by a growing literature now, says this can explain some of the societal outcomes we see around sex representation.

Males and females are clearly biologically different, so I don’t think it should be heresy to say our brains will also be different. But as with most biological factors, our similarities are far greater than our differences.

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spr...different.html

Well put. Or was it expected roles and possibly training? I really think it is more brain wiring.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

The "possibility"... I'm sure there is a possibility, but I'll bet that unless you are under the age of 30 that you didn't grow up playing with Barbies and Easy Bake ovens. A tool kit? Maybe a science kit? Or just some toy guns and mandate to "get out and play." I really don't think we can in any way even suggest a possibility of gender differences coming down along the lines of having mechanical affinity and liking dirty jobs...not until we spend a lot less time programming our children (not that I actually believe we can achieve such a feat).

EDIT:

Oh, and I get just as fed up about your hypothetical elephant as you do. We should talk about this sh*t.

I think this is a good point. If you study just people under the age of 30, you will probably get a more neutral childhood environment. I watched my own kids (boy and girl) grow up recently receiving identical STEM education with extra encouragement programs for the girls. Currently in the US, there are about 20% female engineering students, up from 6% a generation ago. Almost everyone would agree this is better, but if it never gets to 50/50 has society failed, or is it okay to stop worrying about at some point (below 50%)?

You used (interchangeably?) the term "aptitude" and the term "affinity", both describing male vs female traits. I think the difference in meaning is important. We could debate the natural or nurtured aptitude (ability) of one gender over another, but more interesting to me is the affinity (interest) in performing certain roles. If we could magically strip away all of the society gender bias, would women actually have the same INTEREST in fixing and commanding a sailboat? If not, wouldn't it be annoying to a "traditional-role" woman if feminists were to complain about her free choices?

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by cyan

If we could magically strip away all of the society gender bias, would women actually have the same INTEREST in fixing and commanding a sailboat?

That's what I want to know

Nature and nurture...try getting drunk with a feminist (they aren't all hard asses) and spend the night arguing the point. It's amazing what kind of things individuals think can be nutured or might be just plain instict.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by rgranger

Well my wife would not ever take the boat out without me nor do I think she could. She also has no interest in helping to operate the boat when undersway. She likes to be on the boat but usually curls up against the cabin with a good magazine and chills. Now my daughters are another story!!!!

They are all competent sailors. My next O.B. will have electric start and that will solve the last barrier for them to take the boat out without me.

Nature vs nuture?

I can't begin to tell y'all how gawdawful it is breaking down a head and decalcifying all the parts. There oughta be a law against making parts with impossible to clean nooks and crannies. But if you want to know what is truly amazing, it is how a Raritan pump works. Also anazing is this YouTube video on rebuilding the pump: https://ws.bluemail.me/ws/x7vdWlb6qf. The guy never says a word! It used to be that people learned their trades from their parents, so naturally there's a preponderance of men in traditional male fields. It didn't use to be that you'd see women plumbers, or pilots, or scientists, or cops or firemen, err firewomen, err firepeople; well, you get my point. It is both nature and nurture. One needs to have the affinity or skills in their DNA as well as the right environment or nurturing mentors to help make it happen. Obviously there are coding differences between men and women, but what we see is culturally and stereotypically created.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by cyan

If we could magically strip away all of the society gender bias, would women actually have the same INTEREST in fixing and commanding a sailboat?

This can't possibly be a serious question? Even hypothetically

[cyan]

Originally Posted by gamayun

This can't possibly be a serious question? Even hypothetically

Well, to be fair, you deleted the last part of my paragraph.
Let me re-phrase...
Consider a woman who does NOT like to fix and command a sailboat, yet still LOVES to sail on said sailboat whilst reading and dolphin-gazing.
Might such a woman not find it quite annoying to hear a feminist suggest that her choices are partially the result of gender bias in her upbringing and in her society?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Well put. Or was it expected roles and possibly training? I really think it is more brain wiring.

There are plenty of twin studies which address this nurture vs nature question. I forget the bottom line number off hand, but they find DNA accounts for something like 40% of personal traits. It’s the basis for the whole discussion regarding the nature of free will and whether it really exists.

I’m in NO WAY suggesting DNA drives or excuses sexism in our societies. DNA also suggests we are all natural born killers, but part of civilization is to work against some of our basic instincts.

As I said, while genetic, biology and sociological research shows males and females have different statistical strengths, the same research shows the overlap between the male/female traits graphs are largely complete. So while there are statistical tendencies, it is practically irrelevant where the individual is concerned.

[JPA Cate]

One of the documented differences between male human brains and those of the female is that, on average, more cells are devoted to sound location in men's brains than female's. What this means is that if you're a woman, and a male tells you that he thinks that "clunk" came from the port quarter, then that's gotta be the first place to look. Their directional location is better than ours. The point is, appreciate each other's (if you're in a couple relationship) strong suits. Use them well. You only go around once, so far as we know for sure.

Ann

[atmartin]

The weakness of 'appeal to nature' arguments is that we live in an artificial world. The subject of this thread is maintaining and operating manufactured devices: cruising sailboats. It's a lot easier to argue and maybe even prove that men and women evolved to serve different roles in the hunter/gatherer world. What sailors do is pretty far from 'natural'.

Technology has so outpaced evolution that whatever tendencies the sexes may have towards certain activities are just that much harder to tease out from other variables. Until scientists get a lot further we're stuck with theoretical constructs like Empathizing-Systematizing or the "Big Five". I'd wager these will be replaced with new constructs within a decade or two.

From Mike's article:

Originally Posted by Two minds

Trying to assign exact percentages to the relative contributions of “culture” versus “biology” to the behavior of free-living human individuals in a complex social environment is tough at best. Halpern offers a succinct assessment: “The role of culture is not zero. The role of biology is not zero.”

There's always been a potential dark side to psychometrics. Even if all the researchers are honest and the science sound, genetic determinism as an ideology clashes with liberalism, so I feel that skepticism is healthy.