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Old 10-08-2012, 16:45   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I have heard one couple complain about that, but what bothers *me* is things like knowing that a derelict live-aboard has abused his dog through neglect and that his poop goes into the water close to where small children swim.

Those are very real issues and they relate to *my* right -- to live in a clean world where pets are taken care of properly.
This sounds more like a situation that's better solved by contacting the local animal control, health dept., and coast guard.
It's not a reason to do away with the concept that free people should be free to live as we choose, where we choose.
Turning an entire group of people that enjoy sailing as much as you do, some that sail more than any of us, and are responsible, ethical, legal, and clean into criminals simply because they don't belong to a yacht club or choose to pay $500 / month on a permanent slip that they'd never be at because they're cruising or anchoring anyway .... is just silly.
there needs to be a better system in place than what we have now, more gestapo police or coasties isn't the answer, laws prohibit self regulation of sailing communities in this modern system, complaints go unanswered because nobody is ever quite clear what the law is or exactly who's jurisdiction it happens to fall under, so they do nothing for fear of acting outside their job description or jurisdiction.
How about opening up an honest discussion about this and working together to find a solution instead of bashing a stereotype you've heard about from a friend and applied unfairly to a lit if folks that are just as appalled by that mans actions as you are.

... just a thought
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Old 10-08-2012, 16:45   #17
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

The problem is that the government wants to curtail our freedom to anchor, and they are scapegoating a group of people. People that they would rather paint as drug-addled risks to society rather than rat-race dropouts.

Obviously everyone must be gainfully enslaved, or else they are drug-addled risks to society. Which is why the witch hunt against homeless people is going on constantly.
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Old 10-08-2012, 16:51   #18
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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Originally Posted by tager View Post
The elephant in the room regarding shitting in the water: Combined Sewage Overflows.

They go on all winter in Seattle. All winter long, untreated sewage is pumping straight into Puget Sound, Lake Union, Lake Washington, the ship canal, etc.

Also, there are thousands of waterfront homes in my part of the country with "grandfathered in" waste treatment systems that pump directly to the water.

I don't understand why people hate homeless people so much. After all, if you ended up homeless, would that make you less of a person?

If someone chooses to live on a boat, that doesn't make them subhuman. Just because you don't like the way their boat looks, does not mean that you can persecute them.

The real problem is that liveaboards don't pay mortgages and taxes, so people feel cheated when they realize that some dude paying $0 to live on a boat is having the same experience that they are, paying millions to live on the waterfront. A couple phone calls happen, next thing you know, the liveaboards are getting harassed by a group of thugs called the police.

Good reason not to live there.

I am not upset that "Cap'n" Jay paid no taxes. IMO living on $800 in disability he shouldn't.

I object to his dog being trapped, sick, on a vermin-ridden boat (so far we know of three kinds -- roaches, rats and fleas). I object to him OBVIOUSLY pooping overboard since he has nowhere else to do it. I guess he never heard of a bucket and plastic bag...

I object to the risk of his boat careening into other boats or objects near the land because he won't be able to afford to keep his donated tackle up to snuff.
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Old 10-08-2012, 17:29   #19
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Live Aboards could be regarded as living an environmentally friendly lifestyle. Low power consumption, efficient use of construction materials compared to large houses, usually living near their workplace and facilities, or retired, so not much weekly commuter consumption.
Pollution from discharges is usually dealt with by dilution so, unless your living in a stagnant backwater, maceration and discharge of fresh fish food is better than holding the stuff until it becomes putrid and discharging to where it is more difficult to deal with.
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Old 10-08-2012, 17:32   #20
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Obviously liveaboards have a tiny ecological footprint, but we live in a system where you show off your status by parking a clean shiny car in a big green lawn, so ...
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Old 10-08-2012, 17:56   #21
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

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...
Turns out none of it is true....

....
So, how much time have you actually spent in S Florida?

I used to live in SW Florida and there were areas that were becoming essentially boat ghettos. Truly derelict boats full of derelict people -- not some idealistic little "trustafarrian" commune.

While the attempts to deal with this issue appear to have gotten a bit out of hand, and effected boaters that do not fall into this category -- it was in fact a real tangible issue in certain areas.

The USA is hardly a medieval fiefdom -- more like clueless Disney Land. You wanna see what a modern day midieval fiefdom really looks like -- let me take you on a little trip through Guate.
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Old 10-08-2012, 18:09   #22
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

The issue is not liveaboards. If you live on a boat, why can't you maintain it? I still pay taxes (property taxes are charged for boats in marinas). I paid for my boat. What I do not appreciate is coming home after work to see poop in my slip because some irresponsible ASS cannot bother to pump out with the FREE pumpout facilities and cart. What I do not appreciate is the meth addicts at the end of the dock whose friends stand at the gate waiting for someone to let them in so they can buy their drugs. (the meth addicts have since been booted out). What I do not appreciate is the guy whose boat is next to mine whose sail cover is growing MOLD which is really bad on my husband's lungs (asthma) when all it would take is washing it off with a hose. I am a liveaboard in San Francisco Bay. The marina is my front and back yard, and your boat is the same as a house in the same neighborhood. All it takes is a little effort to keep your boat clean. I don't care if it is a little run down. My husband will gladly help you with repairs. I just ask that you be respectful, not dump your poop in my yard, and wash your boat off once in a while. It has nothing to do with freedom. It has to do with being a responsible boat owner, being a decent human being, and being a considerate person of your neighbors.
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Old 10-08-2012, 18:35   #23
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Usually at this point i would be chomping at the bit for my turn to kick the rich folk.
But the truth is far more subtle and hidden (i believe purposefully) that the land developers have been running amuck since the early eighties and they are of course in bed with almost all political parties,and there are Billions of Dollars at stake in this game of relocation of the downtrodden and mid to low income tax payers, along with the re-allocation of state and federal monies to those who pad the pockets the most.
When you speak of raw effluent in our nations waterways, most people have bought into the scapegoat mentality of blaming the live a boards.
This is happening all over the map, not just the United States.
Truth is...the cities aging infrastructures cannot handle the black water discharges of their respective populations any longer.
Instead of re-investing into the necessary upgrades and new constructs of sewage plants ( icky subject for the wine and cheese set ) the cities and town have been joyfully building discharge pipelines further out from the coasts, where Millions of Gallons of sewage are being discharged every single day...Think About that for a Second!!!!!! Beaches that where completely safe for our families to swim near, are now getting so loaded with E-Coli bacteria from the sewage outfalls being brought back in via Tides and Currents (what they couldn't see they didn't plan for) this has been steadily getting worse with every year that passes.
Every once in a while the environmentalists put on a show and get the public all worked up, and then the politicians get up on their soap boxes and promise more studies etc, while it all goes to hell.
Have you ever tried to nail down a senator or any politician for that matter on the subject of Human Waste disposal??? Good luck if you wish to try!! but the moment you mention that some Boaters / Live aboards are blocking the view, or discharging their measly few liters or gallons of wast product into the harbors and waterway's,,(I mean come on,,have you really put much thought into what the actual levels of discharge amount to??)
Right......i didn't think so!!!!! but take it from me,,,or not,,,,and go find out for yourself, It is miniscule compared with the real problem of City waste and Farm run off into our waterways and oceans.
In the mean time,,all of the opinions expressed here are completely valid ,,you may not like them,,but they are valid non the less.
So why don't we stop barking and biting at each other!!! and put the attention and focus where it belongs???,,,Back at the Cities and Politicians who are getting rich of the backs of the people who are suffering the most.!!!
The introduction and forced compliance of dye pellets into the heads on all watercraft would quickly curtail the problem,,because then people wouldnt be able to hide it.
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Old 10-08-2012, 18:46   #24
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

wow, and all I thought it was about was derelict dirty boats

now I get the feeling it's about world dominance
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Old 10-08-2012, 18:47   #25
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

It only takes a few boneheads to make life hard for the rest of us.... they're essentially street people that found a raft to live on... There's a difference between being poor and being a bum...
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Old 10-08-2012, 18:48   #26
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo55 View Post
Usually at this point i would be chomping at the bit for my turn to kick the rich folk.
But the truth is far more subtle and hidden (i believe purposefully) that the land developers have been running amuck since the early eighties and they are of course in bed with almost all political parties,and there are Billions of Dollars at stake in this game of relocation of the downtrodden and mid to low income tax payers, along with the re-allocation of state and federal monies to those who pad the pockets the most.
When you speak of raw effluent in our nations waterways, most people have bought into the scapegoat mentality of blaming the live a boards.
This is happening all over the map, not just the United States.
Truth is...the cities aging infrastructures cannot handle the black water discharges of their respective populations any longer.
Instead of re-investing into the necessary upgrades and new constructs of sewage plants ( icky subject for the wine and cheese set ) the cities and town have been joyfully building discharge pipelines further out from the coasts, where Millions of Gallons of sewage are being discharged every single day...Think About that for a Second!!!!!! Beaches that where completely safe for our families to swim near, are now getting so loaded with E-Coli bacteria from the sewage outfalls being brought back in via Tides and Currents (what they couldn't see they didn't plan for) this has been steadily getting worse with every year that passes.
Every once in a while the environmentalists put on a show and get the public all worked up, and then the politicians get up on their soap boxes and promise more studies etc, while it all goes to hell.
Have you ever tried to nail down a senator or any politician for that matter on the subject of Human Waste disposal??? Good luck if you wish to try!! but the moment you mention that some Boaters / Live aboards are blocking the view, or discharging their measly few liters or gallons of wast product into the harbors and waterway's,,(I mean come on,,have you really put much thought into what the actual levels of discharge amount to??)
Right......i didn't think so!!!!! but take it from me,,,or not,,,,and go find out for yourself, It is miniscule compared with the real problem of City waste and Farm run off into our waterways and oceans.
In the mean time,,all of the opinions expressed here are completely valid ,,you may not like them,,but they are valid non the less.
So why don't we stop barking and biting at each other!!! and put the attention and focus where it belongs???,,,Back at the Cities and Politicians who are getting rich of the backs of the people who are suffering the most.!!!
The introduction and forced compliance of dye pellets into the heads on all watercraft would quickly curtail the problem,,because then people wouldnt be able to hide it.

Very well put and gets right to the heart of the matter. Here in St. Pete, the Assistant DA has been the one really pushing for the new (anti-)anchoring laws, in an effort to make a name for himself. Meanwhile the city waters it's lawns with reclaimed water that is not safe for human consumption, (high coliform counts) says so on a little plaque right next to the park. Not to mention the homes all around me that have mysterious pipes pumping some kind of fluids out into the bay we are anchored at.
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Old 10-08-2012, 18:49   #27
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

There's a difference between being a slave and being a bum, too.
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Old 10-08-2012, 18:55   #28
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Trust a government to use a D8 instead of a hammer...
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Old 10-08-2012, 18:58   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IolantheSF
The issue is not liveaboards. If you live on a boat, why can't you maintain it? I still pay taxes (property taxes are charged for boats in marinas). I paid for my boat. What I do not appreciate is coming home after work to see poop in my slip because some irresponsible ASS cannot bother to pump out with the FREE pumpout facilities and cart. What I do not appreciate is the meth addicts at the end of the dock whose friends stand at the gate waiting for someone to let them in so they can buy their drugs. (the meth addicts have since been booted out). What I do not appreciate is the guy whose boat is next to mine whose sail cover is growing MOLD which is really bad on my husband's lungs (asthma) when all it would take is washing it off with a hose. I am a liveaboard in San Francisco Bay. The marina is my front and back yard, and your boat is the same as a house in the same neighborhood. All it takes is a little effort to keep your boat clean. I don't care if it is a little run down. My husband will gladly help you with repairs. I just ask that you be respectful, not dump your poop in my yard, and wash your boat off once in a while. It has nothing to do with freedom. It has to do with being a responsible boat owner, being a decent human being, and being a considerate person of your neighbors.
+++++++1. Well said!!!!!,even if some think this means being a slave.
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Old 10-08-2012, 19:00   #30
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Re: Derelicts and Live Aboard Hulks

Their are wider issues on point here, not the least of which are the drug addled population who are protected to death by their inalienable rights to snort and smoke and inject whatever the F*** they want while we stand around frustrated.
Yes,,,i get it!!! the problem has spilled over into every back yard and waterway,,and it wont go away until we stand together and make it !!!!

Believed me i have done this before, and had to get a whole downtown business core mobilized and motivated (not by myself) to clean up the Colombian drug traffickers who where making life impossible for ordinary folk.
The public have to take a stand and take matters into their own hands and make the politicians and police very uncomfortable, before they will get involved.
It has been my experience that the people who complain the most are the last ones to take a stand, instead they preferre others to take the risks for them, and then when the tide starts to go the other way,,they are on the podiums with the police chiefs and Local Politicians crowing about how they cleaned it all up.

What i am trying to say here,,is..if you dont like it,,then get off your ass and go do something about it, like offer to help clean the persons boat,,or if that meets with opposition,,then offer to set it alight...
but do something!!!!!
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