Cruising without insurance, how tough?

[David Pritchett]

I just completed 5 years cruising from NC to Bahamas and then the thornless path to Granada and back on my 42 sail and not onced was I asked for insurance. I didn't treat myself to a marina slip very often but when I did it was no questions asked about insurance. I got demasted in St. Martin and used the money I saved from not spending on insurance to make the repairs and still came out ahead of the game. I started out with Insurance coverage thru West Marine underwriter. Got to Flordia and informed them I was jumping off to the Bahamas and they told me they didn't cover me there any more. I droped them, and went cruising, don't need the hassles. David

[Strygaldwir]

Hmmm... Liability coverage amounts are not strictly structured to cover your assets, they are to cover the potiental cost of a judgement. You could have a judgement against you of say 1 million dollars. If you only have 500k of insurance, your assets could be attached for remaining 500k. Indeed, future assets could be attached also. so if you only had 400k in assets, you'd still owe 100k against future assets.

So if you have only 100k in assets, getting 100k in insurance does not mean you can only get a judgment of 200k against you. It mean after they took your 100k in assets, they could continue to come after you for the rest.

Having said all that, I beleive we have a moral responsibility to make someone else whole (if that can be measured in $$) But, some of the amounts associated with make someone whole can be overblown is many U.S. cases.

[imagine2frolic]

Here is an example....On the 1st day of the year my neighbor backed into my truck. He came , and got me, and I could see no damage, so I told him I would look the next day, and he could get a hold of me. Well there was some damage, but my neighbor came home after I was asleep, and kept that up for a week.

I went to the police, and now it is a civil matter. I have to sue the butthead to get my money back. Are you saying that because I can't do my own body work somehow I am negligent, and shouldn't drive a car?

It is your choice to not carry insurance, and my best wishes to you that nothing ever goes wrong. You make that choice, and yes I hate the insurance companies too, but take it easy on those that do carry insurance.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by Fishspearit

I went around yesterday and asked at a few marinas, and none of them required insurance, and one of them hauled boats as well. So at least there are a few left. I guess there really are two schools of thought. If I were buying a $100,000 or more boat, then yes, I agree I would want everybody else to be insured as well so that they could subsidize my necessary full coverage insurance. Keep my rates down and all that. But I intend to buy a boat which I can fix, which is not so valuable that a scrape of the paint job would cost $10,000 to fix. We're not sailing around in egg shells out there, boats get banged and dinged and run into. So do pilings. I've hit telephone pole sized logs at night floating off the Dominican Republic, I've had boats run into me while I was sitting at anchor, boats swing into me in crowded anchorages. Like someone said earlier, sh!t happens, and if you can't afford to fix or repair your boat, then YOU need to buy full coverage. Don't rely on all the boats around you to subsidize your insurance costs.

If you lived in a no fault country, that would work. If you have little enough that you don't mind seeing most of it taken away to help pay for the scratch in the million dollar boat, then that works too. But I don't think that you're going to convince the majority in this country that if you damage my stuff it was my responsibility to fix it or have insurance I paid for fix it, while you walk away.

I have a friend who has BoatUS liability, $200 or $300 for a 34. Florida might be different rates.
BoatUS: Marine Insurance - Policy Information

John

[Fishspearit]

Originally Posted by cal40john

If you have little enough that you don't mind seeing most of it taken away to help pay for the scratch in the million dollar boat, then that works too. But I don't think that you're going to convince the majority in this country that if you damage my stuff it was my responsibility to fix it or have insurance I paid for fix it, while you walk away.

Perhaps the widening disparity in wealth has a role in this. If I'm negligent and cause damage to another boat, I certainly expect to be responsible for the damage, and I would find a way to take care of it. My guess though is that if I'm negligent, the insurance I paid for would not cover the damage. That's such an easy out for them. So they only cover the inevitable, unavoidable accidents. The poor man must pay to protect the million dollar yachts that litter the path ahead of him, though he himself, through choice or not, lives a humble existence.

[Mike Banks]

You need a lot more than a million third party property damage cover--and a lot more than that for third party (persons). In Oz you can sail without it but marinas will not let you berth there or fuel up. Pretty soon I think it will be compulsory--just like it is with motor vehicles.

In America there may be no-fault cover--but there is not such a deal here. If you break something you have to pay for the damage or injuries you caused--and it is this you need covered. Your own vessel might well not be covered--this will make cover cheaper--but if you lose it at sea where it may constitute a hazard or at a marina you need to have the costs of raising the wreck covered.

It is wonderful that you people have sailed the world and never been asked for it--but that does not mean that you did not need it even if it never seemed important.

For most of us the costs do not stop at the value of our own vessel. After that there are calls on whatever other assets you own--you could lose a lifetime's accumulated wealth if you really stuff things up or, as someone said, start a good fire. The wind is what spreads fires at marina berths--as wellas a few good propane or fuel tank burstings.

Mine is a comparatively cheap yacht for its size--but it is not a new one just a well maintained oldie. I have it covered for sixty five grand total loss. This does only cover me for Australian waters though--for global cruising I need to pay a little extra premium. I am covered for all third party liabilities. In Oz try Club Marine or Trident--but there are others. Getting cover for a trimaran is not easy either--some companies will not touch them.

[Ramona]

Originally Posted by Fishspearit

But what's the risk at haulout that requires me to be insured? Is my boat going to break the travel lift? There has to be space for the lift to get between the boats, so they aren't so close as to allow fire to spread. The yard blocks the boat up, so if it falls it's their fault.

Our local council run slip had two accidents in a row. The worst involved a 45 foot steel ketch. As it was hauled out the wet steel keel on a flat steel support slipped. the rear arms were not in close enough and the whole lot capsized, masts nearly wiping out a couple of parked cars. The slips have since been modified.
The council pays $35,000 a year public liability insurance for a gross turn over of $17,000 in fees. Every one works on their own boats. Users also have to have a 5 million dollar public cover as well.
In Australia the minimum cover for racing dinghies is 5 million and if its in a national park, 10 million. Commercial fishermen like my self is 10 million.
In the case of the slips you will notice they have cover and so does the user. We should have all gone into the insurance scam.
I'm fortunate to live in a sea side town. New resident in the area has just moved down from Sydney with his yacht. He reckons in Sydney now there is only one slipway where the owner can work on his own boat. Most now will only slip if they do everything. Some will not even let the owner on the wharf. Public liability insurance is scaring people to death.

PS the local council is looking for someone to take over the local slip. You have to provide your own insurance cover.

Wonder why yachts are so cheap these days?

[Celestialsailor]

The insurance required is minimal. It was neccessay to protect the marinas. It covers them in the event your boat should damage other boats or marina property. Sure, you can't see how your boat might cause damage and that is exactly why you need it...The unforseen event that can take place causing damage. If your neighbours boat had an electrical fire at 2am. and burned to the waterline, taking your boat with it. I'll bet you would be really bummed out if they had no insurance and screaming foul and the lawyers would go after the deepest pocket...the marina.

[viking69]

looks like all ships(boats) of 15m or more must now obtain insurance whether they like it or not.

MSQ headlines - Ship insurance

I think you will find it will be all boats of any size before long

[Pblais]

If I were buying a $100,000 or more boat, then yes, I agree I would want everybody else to be insured as well so that they could subsidize my necessary full coverage insurance.

The trend is toward requiring at least liability insurance. No one cares if you ever collect anything from any one else.

The issue is forcing someone else to assume your potential liabilities. The requirement of insurance is to force you to accept all your risks not just the ones you choose. It is easy to say you assume all liability but not so easy to prove you can make good.

You can say they can't make you have insurance but they don't have to accept your position for the very same reason. They don't have to buy more insurance to protect themselves against you if they choose not to. If it works for you then it works for them too. In many countries it is the law that you must carry insurance as a foreign traveler so you can't make a mess that you can't clean up.

Your risks can be more than your boat is worth. A sunk boat costs more to recover than it is worth is a fair assessment.

[Holding Pattern]

I just spoke with Bob at Progressive.

They DO NOT write policies for liveaboards. Liability or otherwise. He said in the last 5 years they have not written policies in FL or any other state if the boat is your primary residence.

The rate would be nice but I can't lie to get it.

[Tellie]

Sorry, the white guy in a suit was clearly a shot across the bow.
But then since I'm not burdened with "white guy in suit" guilt it's easier to see it for what it was.

[Joli]

Actually, I was very happy to have insurance when the mooring we were recently secured to broke.

Inusrance falls under responsibilities and obligations in my book.

[minisailor]

Joli
Was the mooring that came loose a rental mooring?

[Tellie]

"Inusrance falls under responsibilities and obligations in my book."

No offense meant to you Joli, but I remember (years ago) when boat insurance as it's known today wasn't even heard of. In fact the total of all my insurances combined back then car, house, health, etc. was only a few hundred dollars a year. perhaps two weeks salary. Today people can easily spend a third of their income if not more on insurances. Sailing represents the closet thing I can come to real freedom left to be had. I chose to go boating and accepted that which came with it. It bothers me when check book boaters and lawyers decide for me what they think I should be obligated to do to meet their list of requirements to make their responsible boater list. I respect your book as it applies to you, as long as I'm not forced to buy it, belive it, or live by it.