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Old 08-10-2012, 14:56   #31
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
Raku, your still complaineing, and doing nothing !! I don't know is no answer! if all this bothers you so much why don't ya find out WHY the rules in place are not being inforced ? Personal involvement is the only answer to your problem ! not posting the same stuff on a foram like this !! Ive seen your posts on this subject for a couple of months now !and your still wondering WHY, just a thought, maybe you should find out WHY and then tell us why and maybe someone smart can help ya !! Ya think ??

I'm not complaining. You are the one that's complaining. You mean you know what is unacceptable to you but not what is acceptable to you?

I guess I don't see why you jumped in if you didn't want to discuss it. You are the one that characterized live aboards as leeches on society. You described the boats. It would probably be tough for most people to match yours unless either they have very deep pockets or yours is a very rare Hans Christian that doesn't have much value.

Tell me what I haven't done that you think I should do, and ... since you obviously feel strongly about the topic -- what you have done. It's a two way street.
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Old 08-10-2012, 15:04   #32
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Before things get too heated...

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Old 08-10-2012, 15:26   #33
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
How about someone who:

- maintains their vessel to a basic level of seaworthiness. ground tackle capable of supporting the yearly weather patterns and propulsion (of whatever variety) capable of moving the vessel around.

- complies with discharge rules 99% of the time concerning sewage, trash, and oil.

- an additional bonus, and I'm talking a bonus here, would be someone who contributes a net positive in terms of fiscal impact.
Rebel,

C'mon mate - should we apply this to all homeowners who don't tend their lawns, paint their houses, fix their porches? Should we kick them out?

Not everyone who appears to be a deadbeat appears that way out of lazyiess. Some are just plain poor and being poor is not a crime and is not always indicative of laziness. Please, not everyone has the capacity to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and "get on with it".

Raku,

Bob is right. WHo better than you to try to form an Action Commitee for sailors. It doesn't have to be just for liveaboards but for marine enthusiast in general.

I was very politically active when I lived in the states and the thing that we found most powerful to protect people and make change wasnt marching or voting - it was making sure the City council in the areas we were conceerned about saw our faces and heard our voices EVERY SINGLE TIME THEY CONVENED.

If you can get a dozen or more people together it is a simple matter of finding the open meeting schedule or asking for it. Make sure at least one person, better a couple, attend every meeting and ask a question - can be a totally innocent and unrelated to sailing question. The importrant bit is that when you step to the mike you say "This is, John Do, From the Sailing Action Committee and I want ed to know about XYZ"

Doesnt take long, doesnt take 10,000 signatures - what happens is that the people who make the rules see you and remember you and it gives you power because you and the people you are representing become human beings and not just people in the news.

You live there, this affects you Raku, you are in a unique position to make an impact in your community about something you care about.

...just saying
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Old 08-10-2012, 15:43   #34
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Re: Before things get too heated...

n fact I've already said what I think the solution is -- the Coast Guard already has all the tools to get this problem under control. I personally don't have a problem with people living "out there" "for free." There but for the grace of God go I. But we are a nation, or in this case, a state, of laws.

Florida law clearly states -- and has been upheld by the state supreme court -- that a boat that moves is a cruiser, even if it only moves once a year. Using a situation many of us are familiar with -- Jay Burki -- his boat has no way of moving. It has no workable engine, no mast, and not even a motorized dinghy that could be used to move it. That means that no matter what his dreams may be, he is a live-aboard, not a cruiser, and not the municipality can regulate him. That's why the judge could set the orders he set.

The Coast Guard can declare a boat a hazard to navigation. Clearly, a boat hanging from one 3-ply anchor rode with two of the strands broken will become a hazard very easily.

Sanitation is a little harder because many holding tanks have neither view ports nor gauges. But they could take samples from the water. If they find way too much e. coli in the water, then they could monitor boats in that area more carefully. They're smart. I bet they could figure it out.

To me, those are the biggest problems. the third problem, derelict boats, is more difficult, but they could tow all the derelict boats in all of Boca Ciega Bay out to the gulf and create a new fishing reef. Once a few got dragged off and turned into fish sanctuary, some owners would come and move their boats. Either way, things are moving along.

I don't know what other states do, but it's amazing to me how easy it is to not keep a boat registered in Florida. I think they could give a reduced registration fee to anyone willing to etch their boat's identification number (a VIN number for boats) in enough places that it would be hard to just cut the numbers off and leave the rest of the boat.

I do know that if we don't try to find solutions, we're guaranteed to not find any.

I thought people here might be interested in an update on the general situation here since so many people here put in so much time and in some cases money trying to help solve it.
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Old 08-10-2012, 15:59   #35
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
Rebel,

C'mon mate - should we apply this to all homeowners who don't tend their lawns, paint their houses, fix their porches? Should we kick them out?

Not everyone who appears to be a deadbeat appears that way out of lazyiess. Some are just plain poor and being poor is not a crime and is not always indicative of laziness. Please, not everyone has the capacity to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and "get on with it".

Raku,

Bob is right. WHo better than you to try to form an Action Commitee for sailors. It doesn't have to be just for liveaboards but for marine enthusiast in general.

I was very politically active when I lived in the states and the thing that we found most powerful to protect people and make change wasnt marching or voting - it was making sure the City council in the areas we were conceerned about saw our faces and heard our voices EVERY SINGLE TIME THEY CONVENED.

If you can get a dozen or more people together it is a simple matter of finding the open meeting schedule or asking for it. Make sure at least one person, better a couple, attend every meeting and ask a question - can be a totally innocent and unrelated to sailing question. The importrant bit is that when you step to the mike you say "This is, John Do, From the Sailing Action Committee and I want ed to know about XYZ"

Doesnt take long, doesnt take 10,000 signatures - what happens is that the people who make the rules see you and remember you and it gives you power because you and the people you are representing become human beings and not just people in the news.

You live there, this affects you Raku, you are in a unique position to make an impact in your community about something you care about.

...just saying
And you're certain I haven't talked to anyone here? YOU BEEN FOLLOWIN' ME????? (grin)

But I look at the snarly replies I've seen here, and it may not be quite as simple as "Rakuflames cares, so she will fix it." Sometimes life isn't simple. I was hoping to get a more forthcoming reply from Rebel because he is just the kind of person who has to be persuaded that those scummy live aboards have a right to be on the planet -- and maybe even on a boat.

"Raku you go and fix it" isn't much of a discussion either. I really thought that at least some people here would still be interested in the problem, which of course is not unique to Gulfport, but someone else responded to my OP and it was removed. I have no idea why; I didn't see anything wrong with it.
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Old 08-10-2012, 16:03   #36
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Re: Before things get too heated...

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
<snip>

Sanitation is a little harder because many holding tanks have neither view ports nor gauges. But they could take samples from the water. If they find way too much e. coli in the water, then they could monitor boats in that area more carefully. They're smart. I bet they could figure it out.


<snip>
Raku,
my understanding is that it is illegal to dump sewage from a container overboard. Yet, it is legal to be swimming and take care of business.

Also, standing over the side and letting it all out is ok, as long as it is directly into the water, and not into a container, then the water...


Here is one government link:
Quote:
Note on the relationship between CWA sections 312 and 402:
Section 301(a) of the CWA provides that "the discharge of any pollutant by any person shall be unlawful" unless the discharge is in compliance with certain other sections of the Act. 33 U.S.C. 1311(a). The CWA defines "discharge of a pollutant" as "(A) any addition of any pollutant to navigable waters from any point source, (B) any addition of any pollutant to the waters of the contiguous zone or the ocean from any point source other than a vessel or other floating craft." 33 U.S.C. 1362(12). A "point source" is a "discernible, confined and discrete conveyance" and includes a "vessel or other floating craft." 33 U.S.C. 1362(14). One way a person may discharge a pollutant without violating the section 301 prohibition is to obtain a National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System (NPDES) permit under section 402 of the CWA. 33 U.S.C. 1342.
Note how they define "point source": discernible, confined and discrete conveyance" and includes a "vessel or other floating craft." 33 U.S.C. 1362(14)

Again, my understanding is that they can get you for indecent exposure... but not sewage discharge...

BTW, I have seen a sea lion come alongside in a harbor and do his business. I believe that the plume was greater then if someone had discharged their holding tank overboard. I was stunned at the effect.
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Old 08-10-2012, 16:05   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor

Rebel,

C'mon mate - should we apply this to all homeowners who don't tend their lawns, paint their houses, fix their porches? Should we kick them out?
Actually, in my city atleast, they warn you then start fining the homeowners if the lawn is not taken care of.

I find that defining when a boat is a derelict kind of a grey area. However sanitation rules are pretty black and white, and more easily enforced. If the city is this upset, it seems like an easy solution to the actual problem people.
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Old 08-10-2012, 16:09   #38
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Re: Before things get too heated...

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Originally Posted by EzzyD View Post
Raku,
my understanding is that it is illegal to dump sewage from a container overboard. Yet, it is legal to be swimming and take care of business.

Also, standing over the side and letting it all out is ok, as long as it is directly into the water, and not into a container, then the water...


Here is one government link:


Note how they define "point source": discernible, confined and discrete conveyance" and includes a "vessel or other floating craft." 33 U.S.C. 1362(14)

Again, my understanding is that they can get you for indecent exposure... but not sewage discharge...

BTW, I have seen a sea lion come alongside in a harbor and do his business. I believe that the plume was greater then if someone had discharged their holding tank overboard. I was stunned at the effect.

Oh dear.

I know a young man with a serious cleanliness fetish. It dawned on him one day that whales poop and he has not stepped foot in the ocean since ... Your story is kind of funny. Usually we think about sailing and we think about playful dolphins, frigate birds ... not seals taking a dump!
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Old 08-10-2012, 16:13   #39
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by MysticGringo View Post
Actually, in my city atleast, they warn you then start fining the homeowners if the lawn is not taken care of.

I find that defining when a boat is a derelict kind of a grey area. However sanitation rules are pretty black and white, and more easily enforced. If the city is this upset, it seems like an easy solution to the actual problem people.

The "city" (small town) isn't going to act; that's clear. They have one police boat, and its operator is trained as a police officer and boat operator. They don't have this kind of training. The boat is rarely even in the water, their "boat policeman" spends most of his time being a police officer on land. One time we saw it go racing out into the bay, lights flashing and siren blaring. Would have loved to know what got him so motivated, but we couldn't spot anything.

The Coast Guard does have the knowledge and skills.
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Old 08-10-2012, 16:50   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames

The "city" (small town) isn't going to act; that's clear. They have one police boat, and its operator is trained as a police officer and boat operator. They don't have this kind of training. The boat is rarely even in the water, their "boat policeman" spends most of his time being a police officer on land. One time we saw it go racing out into the bay, lights flashing and siren blaring. Would have loved to know what got him so motivated, but we couldn't spot anything.

The Coast Guard does have the knowledge and skills.
That sucks, what a waste of resources. Obviously there is a decent sized group of upset people, done with political power, done without. If they had the right outlet, such as knowing to call the coast guard to inspect boats, eventually it'll happen.
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Old 08-10-2012, 17:02   #41
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by MysticGringo View Post
That sucks, what a waste of resources. Obviously there is a decent sized group of upset people, done with political power, done without. If they had the right outlet, such as knowing to call the coast guard to inspect boats, eventually it'll happen.

I hope so. One of the BIG hurdles is that some of the people unalterably opposed to live aboards have a lot of power, either officially or behind the scenes. Florida's law is pretty clear about who can and cannot. Jay Burki would not be able to meet the very liberal standards.

I see a huge problem in what someone said about what is and isn't illegal (excuse me) dumping of human waste, because that's the big issue. A lot of people don't care if the boats play bumper cars out there in a storm or not, but they want the beach water clean. (Personally I think it's an awful beach; poor circulation makes it marine-stinky at low tide if you know what I mean, but that only makes the dumping problem worse.)
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Old 08-10-2012, 17:13   #42
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
C'mon mate - should we apply this to all homeowners who don't tend their lawns, paint their houses, fix their porches? Should we kick them out?
Yes. Once a house is manifestly unsafe to live in it is or should be condemned at the expense of the owner and the owner should then have to repair or sell the house to the municipality or it should be taken.

You don't allow people living on land to take a dump in the city water tower. You don't force the mail man to walk on a dangerous porch. You don't let home owners allow wild animals to run free.

If a home is so unkept that it causes a vermin problem, the city can act. (This happened to me when a neighbor abandoned their home and the back yard became a wilderness in which colonies of rats where living and invading nearby homes.)

Its one thing to look a little shabby. Its another thing to keep something unsafe, polluting, or detrimental to its environment.
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Old 08-10-2012, 18:51   #43
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Can't help but feel that characters like Capt Jay are going to spoil it for everyone else, even after all the hard work put by an army of volunteers to help him out.

Perhaps it will take regulation and permits to acheive a sensible standard of behaviour of yachties to all those who live nearby.

Pete

Yes, there does need to be a standard of some sort, but I'm dealing with excessive regulation right now and it isn't fun. The Federal government says that it wants to do something, the local government is trying it's hardest to prevent it... It is a mess.

Anyways, I think if the boat is clean from the outside and is in or can be brought to a sailable condition within 28 days then it is ok. Otherwise, it gets auctioned or brought onto land.

And the waste issue is the big one. Now, there needs to be some research like the Gates Foundation is doing into making toilets better, but I don't even think the 3 mile limit is far enough out. Let alone dumping in an anchorage.
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Old 08-10-2012, 20:18   #44
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Yes. Once a house is manifestly unsafe to live in it is or should be condemned at the expense of the owner and the owner should then have to repair or sell the house to the municipality or it should be taken.

You don't allow people living on land to take a dump in the city water tower. You don't force the mail man to walk on a dangerous porch. You don't let home owners allow wild animals to run free.

If a home is so unkept that it causes a vermin problem, the city can act. (This happened to me when a neighbor abandoned their home and the back yard became a wilderness in which colonies of rats where living and invading nearby homes.)

Its one thing to look a little shabby. Its another thing to keep something unsafe, polluting, or detrimental to its environment.

You're absolutely right about that, but it's easier with a house than with a boat ... thus this discussion.
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Old 08-10-2012, 20:32   #45
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

Tolerance and respect - where did it go?

Does anyone ask why the water is green? What the impact of beautiful green tailored lawns have on the water? How do they stay green in water restrictions? How your city's sewage plants dump raw sewage at volumes so big as to make the anchoring communities imperceivable. Why we tolerate corporations poisoning our waters? What is a fish kill?

It's all good until the THEM becomes YOU.
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