Do I Need A Life Raft

[fish53]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

My life raft was on the foredeck under my inverted dinghy, a 100 lb aluminum RIB. My plan was to put both in the water if I needed the raft. I'm not sure that the raft would be better than the dinghy. In rough weather, both may flip. I know its easy for me to re-right the dinghy by myself, but I never tried the life raft. The dinghy has the distinct advantage that you can row it, while the life raft might just float by the only island within 500 miles. It also seems to me that the dinghy is much more strongly built.

I've been in rafts in over forty knots of wind where the raft was rolled across the surface until it's ballast chambers filled. If that had been a dinghy you might have had time to say a brief prayer. I'm very resistant to the thought of a dinghy replacing a raft, might be true in good weather but I prefer to prepare for the worst as emergencies don't always occur in fine weather. Modern liferafts are constructed to withstand any foreseeable sea state, I doubt many dinghy's are, I've been in a Portland pudgy and in truly poor conditions they would beat you to death. You may get seasick in a raft (everyone does) but they're easy to board from the water, easy to right if inverted and present no additional hazards such as hard surfaces to increase injury. The dinghy's appeal of self rescue by rowing or sailing to an island or shore is, in my opinion of limited value.

[kmacdonald]

I have heard a lot of stories where the life raft blew away when needed. I don't think anything works well in extreme conditions. Some would just prefer to die like a gentleman.

[fish53]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I have heard a lot of stories where the life raft blew away when needed. I don't think anything works well in extreme conditions. Some would just prefer to die like a gentleman.

If possible rafts are properly deployed while tethered to the sinking/burning vessel to address the blowing away issue. As with anything planning, practice and knowledge help mitigate random negative circumstances, sometimes.

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I have heard a lot of stories where the life raft blew away when needed. I don't think anything works well in extreme conditions. Some would just prefer to die like a gentleman.

That begs the question, why would someone be out in such extreme conditions?

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by fish53

In practice the terms are used together and/or separately to address the same thing. Exposure suits are similar to or the same as what we call "deck suits" in commercial fishing. There are also rescue suits which again are similar but give up a bit of thermal protection for physical function. It is correct that the ingress of water in any sizable amount compromises any suits effectiveness. True survival suits are very cumbersome and it's a very good idea to practice often in donning, on boats I used to run I required a crewmember to be in a suit, zipped and ready for water in 30 seconds. Sounds easy until you try it under realistic circumstances. I've spent an hour in thirty degree water with an air temp of -15 while wearing a survival suit, much longer and my widow would be typing this.

In northern or southern latitudes very low air temperatures are going to make a significant difference. Heat loss through the head, face and neck make the hood fit and seal critical.

I've dived in freezing water wearing a semi dry suit with extended time in the water, and in the sub freezing weather out of the water before and after. This suit was not cumbersome, separate hood, gloves and bootees.

I've "swam" in freezing water sans any suit briefly twice. The first instance was with friends who thought it was a great idea, second time to pull a boy out of a pond who had fallen in.

Crewman from sunk warships have survived for up to about 30 minutes in such conditions, out in heavy seas. If the better suits you describe are only good for about an hour in freezing water, I'll pass and carry a diving suit instead.

No matter how good a suit is, being in choppy water for awhile is one thing, being out in the open sea with breaking waves is another. Fatique, exhaustion will lead to drowning.

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by crabcake

That begs the question, why would someone be out in such extreme conditions?

As Chris Bonnington, Himalayan mountaineer once said, "Because it's there"

Seriously, avoidance of extreme conditions is prudent. Sometimes though circumstances and sudden changes in weather and sea can take people by surprise.

Check out the story of the Fastnet race, think it was 1979, when several people died in a storm. There is a video on YouTube about it.

[fish53]

Originally Posted by crabcake

That begs the question, why would someone be out in such extreme conditions?

I worked in those conditions for years and while I know the vast majority of people will never be in such conditions they do exist, and sometimes when you don't expect them.

[fish53]

Originally Posted by RPZ

In northern or southern latitudes very low air temperatures are going to make a significant difference. Heat loss through the head, face and neck make the hood fit and seal critical.

I've dived in freezing water wearing a semi dry suit with extended time in the water, and in the sub freezing weather out of the water before and after. This suit was not cumbersome, separate hood, gloves and bootees.

I've "swam" in freezing water sans any suit briefly twice. The first instance was with friends who thought it was a great idea, second time to pull a boy out of a pond who had fallen in.

Crewman from sunk warships have survived for up to about 30 minutes in such conditions, out in heavy seas. If the better suits you describe are only good for about an hour in freezing water, I'll pass and carry a diving suit instead.

No matter how good a suit is, being in choppy water for awhile is one thing, being out in the open sea with breaking waves is another. Fatique, exhaustion will lead to drowning.

Hence the need for a liferaft, and not a simple open inshore raft but a fully enclosed and ballasted one. I've unfortunately seen a number of persons die at sea, one died when he jumped from a sinking boat into the water not fifty feet from a rescue boat. I had several friends aboard the Arctic Rose when she sank and all aboard perished. I had two go out from under me when I was a young man, one just east of Great Round Shoal outside Nantucket sound in February, the wind was NE 50-60kts, close one that was.

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by fish53

Hence the need for a liferaft, and not a simple open inshore raft but a fully enclosed and ballasted one. I've unfortunately seen a number of persons die at sea, one died when he jumped from a sinking boat into the water not fifty feet from a rescue boat. I had several friends aboard the Arctic Rose when she sank and all aboard perished. I had two go out from under me when I was a young man, one just east of Great Round Shoal outside Nantucket sound in February, the wind was NE 50-60kts, close one that was.

The attrition rate on small to medium size commercial boats is probably higher than pleasure cruisers due to the numbers, and economic pressures of commercial fishing.

I do not know the numbers for pleasure cruisers in the mid latitudes north and south, but in the mountains I think more summer novices get killed than winter climbers. The summer novices head up the mountains in marginal footwear, sometimes sneakers, jeans and t-shirts, maybe a light jacket or sweater in their bag. While at a few thousand feet sunny, breezy 75 degrees suddenly changes to stormy rain, high winds, maybe low cloud and 50 degrees. You know the rest.

I would agree that a good offshore raft is essential, especially in temperate latitudes. If I had a dingy as well I'd throw that in the water too if there was time.

[Bulawayo]

Fish, Im glad we are all entitled to an opinion. Ive posted before about some of the famous survival folk including the Robertsons and their ultimate reliance on dinghies. However, this liftraft issue keeps missing the obvious. Some craft are recognised as lifeboats as opposed to liftrafts. My own dinghy is rated as a lifeboat and I know which I prefer to have faith in.
You mention being in a liferaft at 'over 40 knots'. Ive launched my dinghy and collected the crew from a sinking US flagged monohull (a timber Herreshoff) in the Red Sea, also in over 40 knots. I agree it was scary launching and retrieving, but it certainly wasnt too bad to motor and collect the crew of the other vessel and at no point did I feel my dinghy was in danger. As many shall know, the Red Sea is well known for its contrary sea states.
It is also overlooked that many dinghies will simply not just blow over as easily as a liferaft - especially if they have deployed a drogue or a sea anchor. A quality RIB dinghy, (not an inflatable with a soft floor), with the right gear fitted, is far preferable in my opinion and can often ultimately self rescue, rather than bob around like a liferaft. We should also recognise how many semi-rigids, in particular, are in use globally as rescue craft. Yes, there can be issues with dinghies - the same applies to liferafts. Many people place reliance on a liferaft that may not be durable, that they usually have no experience of using, that is reliant on servicing, and is especially vulnerable at its time of inflation. With the dinghy, one is familiar with it via constant use, you can try all manner of variations for survival on it etc at any time and also provision it as you wish. Dont also overlook the Tinker Tramps and Tinker Travellers of yesteryear - dinghies that were accepted as liferaft replacements.
It would be even better if the Tinker type inflatable canopies were available in several lengths and widths to be customised and fitted to various dinghies.
Like many issues, it is down to how well we educate ourselves on the benefits of either craft and as to which we may ultimately put our faith in. To me, unless legislation dictates, its an issue for which we all make our own choice.

Originally Posted by fish53

I've been in rafts in over forty knots of wind where the raft was rolled across the surface until it's ballast chambers filled. If that had been a dinghy you might have had time to say a brief prayer. I'm very resistant to the thought of a dinghy replacing a raft, might be true in good weather but I prefer to prepare for the worst as emergencies don't always occur in fine weather. Modern liferafts are constructed to withstand any foreseeable sea state, I doubt many dinghy's are, I've been in a Portland pudgy and in truly poor conditions they would beat you to death. You may get seasick in a raft (everyone does) but they're easy to board from the water, easy to right if inverted and present no additional hazards such as hard surfaces to increase injury. The dinghy's appeal of self rescue by rowing or sailing to an island or shore is, in my opinion of limited value.

[fish53]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

Fish, Im glad we are all entitled to an opinion. Ive posted before about some of the famous survival folk including the Robertsons and their ultimate reliance on dinghies. However, this liftraft issue keeps missing the obvious. Some craft are recognised as lifeboats as opposed to liftrafts. My own dinghy is rated as a lifeboat and I know which I prefer to have faith in.
You mention being in a liferaft at 'over 40 knots'. Ive launched my dinghy and collected the crew from a sinking US flagged monohull (a timber Herreshoff) in the Red Sea, also in over 40 knots. I agree it was scary launching and retrieving, but it certainly wasnt too bad to motor and collect the crew of the other vessel and at no point did I feel my dinghy was in danger. As many shall know, the Red Sea is well known for its contrary sea states.
It is also overlooked that many dinghies will simply not just blow over as easily as a liferaft - especially if they have deployed a drogue or a sea anchor. A quality RIB dinghy, (not an inflatable with a soft floor), with the right gear fitted, is far preferable in my opinion and can often ultimately self rescue, rather than bob around like a liferaft. We should also recognise how many semi-rigids, in particular, are in use globally as rescue craft. Yes, there can be issues with dinghies - the same applies to liferafts. Many people place reliance on a liferaft that may not be durable, that they usually have no experience of using, that is reliant on servicing, and is especially vulnerable at its time of inflation. With the dinghy, one is familiar with it via constant use, you can try all manner of variations for survival on it etc at any time and also provision it as you wish. Dont also overlook the Tinker Tramps and Tinker Travellers of yesteryear - dinghies that were accepted as liferaft replacements.
It would be even better if the Tinker type inflatable canopies were available in several lengths and widths to be customised and fitted to various dinghies.
Like many issues, it is down to how well we educate ourselves on the benefits of either craft and as to which we may ultimately put our faith in. To me, unless legislation dictates, its an issue for which we all make our own choice.

I did not intend to initiate a debate, you should go to sea in what you chose.

[Pelagic]

I have not read all the posts but having both taken to a Liferaft from a sinking tug during a gale and rescued mariners from Liferafts in similar weather, the answer is both qualified and simple.

IF you are either offshore or in foreign areas with poor rescue services and communication... Get one!

IF you get one, make sure it is positioned to be deployed easily by one person.

It is not an 'either / or' vs the rib tender as one complements the other if you are fortunate to deploy both in storm conditions and keep them within reach during abandoning transfer.

Seems strange to me that people will buy 'theoretical insurance coverage' but not buy a real life raft, if practical.

[fish53]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I have not read all the posts but having both taken to a Liferaft from a sinking tug during a gale and rescued mariners from Liferafts in similar weather, the answer is both qualified and simple.

IF you are either offshore or in foreign areas with poor rescue services and communication... Get one!

IF you get one, make sure it is positioned to be deployed easily by one person.

It is not an 'either / or' vs the rib tender as one complements the other if you are fortunate to deploy both in storm conditions and keep them within reach during abandoning transfer.

Seems strange to me that people will buy 'theoretical insurance coverage' but not buy a real life raft, if practical.

On the factory trawler I operated we carried liferafts as required by the USCG, we also carried a rescue boat, a sixteen foot RIB with a forty horse outboard. Different tools for different purposes.

[Bulawayo]

Hmmmmm......there we go again with a dictate - 'get one'.
I repeat, there are dangers and risks with either. For people that are liveaboards, world girdling (and I believe you do a fair bit) that it is not always so easy/practical to maintain a liferaft. The dinghy option is more than viable if a reasonable quality dinghy is selected. Its amazing that pertinet information, even when presented, is ignored to make a response more justifiable. Just look (repeat, repeat) at lifeboats and how many semi-rigids in particular are used as rescue boats.
If you are going to have a liferaft it could be argued that this should be kept within the dinghy!!!
To elucidate; just simply getting any liferaft can put the user at more risk if the incorrect type is selected. The same applies equally with dinghies. If you are in an area with poor rescue services that could suggest the concept to be self reliant is even more critical - to rely on a craft that can self rescue, thereby validating the adapted dinghy concept.
It seems bizarre to me that people place their faith in a craft that they probably have never seen inflated, have not practised with on a regular basis and just bobs around at the mercy of its environment rather than use a dinghy with which they are familiar and is capable of being customised to suit conditions and which are often used as rescue craft.

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I have not read all the posts but having both taken to a Liferaft from a sinking tug during a gale and rescued mariners from Liferafts in similar weather, the answer is both qualified and simple.

IF you are either offshore or in foreign areas with poor rescue services and communication... Get one!

IF you get one, make sure it is positioned to be deployed easily by one person.

It is not an 'either / or' vs the rib tender as one complements the other if you are fortunate to deploy both in storm conditions and keep them within reach during abandoning transfer.

Seems strange to me that people will buy 'theoretical insurance coverage' but not buy a real life raft, if practical.

[fish53]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

Hmmmmm......there we go again with a dictate - 'get one'.
I repeat, there are dangers and risks with either. For people that are liveaboards, world girdling (and I believe you do a fair bit) that it is not always so easy/practical to maintain a liferaft. The dinghy option is more than viable if a reasonable quality dinghy is selected. Its amazing that pertinet information, even when presented, is ignored to make a response more justifiable. Just look (repeat, repeat) at lifeboats and how many semi-rigids in particular are used as rescue boats.
If you are going to have a liferaft it could be argued that this should be kept within the dinghy!!!
To elucidate; just simply getting any liferaft can put the user at more risk if the incorrect type is selected. The same applies equally with dinghies. If you are in an area with poor rescue services that could suggest the concept to be self reliant is even more critical - to rely on a craft that can self rescue, thereby validating the adapted dinghy concept.
It seems bizarre to me that people place their faith in a craft that they probably have never seen inflated, have not practised with on a regular basis and just bobs around at the mercy of its environment rather than use a dinghy with which they are familiar and is capable of being customised to suit conditions and which are often used as rescue craft.

No one has advocated acquiring inadequate or inappropriate equipment for a planned voyage or area of operation, quite the opposite.