Custom Tether Design

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

This is a question, not an opinion. I use two industrial (OSHA compliant) safety belts and a 3/4" diameter mooring line running stern cleat to bow cleat. So far I have not real-life tested that, thankfully. Is this an adequate arrangement, in your opinion? I'm not a climber, but do use a locking carabiner as the master link in my electric hoist, which includes a life ring, and which would lift me on board if I ever went MOB. Again, your opinion?

The jack line and tether system should keep you inside the lifelines at all times. If it does that and can’t break then it’s ok IMO. But if it will let you go through or over the lifelines and leave you dangling over the side or in the water it isn’t doing anything useful IMO.

[thinwater]

A few thoughts, replying to several posts:


Is a tether for support? Yes, I believe a tether should be 100% reliable and for many it is common practice to lean on it. This is by no stretch a sloppy practice, if well thought out. For example, if grinding at the mast (my last boat had mast winches), it is FAR more secure and safer to clip one tether leg short and lean against it, as a third leg, than to stagger around and potential shock load the tether. Same at the bow. There is NOTHING wrong with clipping one short and then leaning on it. But you must have proper equipment and know how to use it properly. I've climbed more than I have sailed, which means thousands of days, many thousands of pitches, and countless falls. This includes both rock and ice.


Double carabiners vs. locking. Fun discussion, but off topic here. I do the same thing on top ropes and rappels, and carry only a single locking biner on trad leads. I use a pair of wire gate biners to secure my anchor bridle because wire gates handle corrosion better.


Twisting off. Simon Speirs (Clipper CV 30) died last year because he used a carabiner that could not withstand an odd loading. An ordinary climbing biner would have failed in the same manner. As for clipping other lines, My situational awareness is quite well tuned, but s__t happens. Use non-locking biners long enough and something will happen. BTW, I have a ruptured non-locking biner on my book shelf, ripped appart during a minor leader fall. The gate whipped around to face the cliff, the gate was pressed open by a nubbin, and it failed due to low open gate strength. It was a nothing fall and fortunately, I have a second placement just a few feet lower. Next to it are two other biners with cracks. Just sayin', single, non-locking biners do fail.


I have used rope for jacklines on my last two boats; if you can rig it so that it is not underfoot, it is more durable (through 1/2-inch is overkill). Otherwise, webbing is better. I not not believe in running jacklines from cleat-to-cleat for several reasons:

• I leave my lines rigged and I need the cleats.
• The locations are wrong. The lines should be farther inboard AND should terminated 4-5 feet from the bow and stern You can reach the ends of the boat with a 6' tether with the jackline ending well back (4' chest height, 6' tether...4^2 + 5^2 = 4.5^2, or end the jackline about 4.5 feet back).
• Secondary clipping locations are at least as important. In the CV 30 incident, 2 men washed off. The man who clipped short scrambled back aboard.

Industrial equipment can work, but I prefer the lightness and speed of the via ferrata-style carabiners. Industrial carrabiners must be rated for every-day, uncarring abuse by a guy twice my weight. It's different.



My opinion is that if you are going to use the equipment, you need to understand both the equipment AND how to use it. Limit slack. Always understand your fall trajectory. Move carefully and get low when you should (there is no rule that says stand tall or walk--scoot when you need to). Practice with the gear in fair weather to where this is reflex and nothing gets in the way.


No I don't always tether and seldom wear a PFD. But I move carefully and I KNOW that my gear is 100% ready when I need it. Every bit is engnieered to work smoothly when I need it.

[Benz]

^^ These last two paragraphs are spot on. Just a few obsevations:

Just because you've broken a carabiner doesn't mean that sort of carabiner is unsuitable in other (or even the same) situations. As you've noted: anomalies happen. But in my estimation the chances of side-loading or open-gate loading a wiregate while at sea are slim enough not to worry about. As for locking biners meant for climbing: a locker is only locked when you bother to screw the little barrel down. Who's going to bother locking an unlocking the biner for every move and clip? It would be an outrageously inefficient waste of time. And then, how long will the innards last on a long salty passage? and if, (horrors) it's one of those autolockers, it gets worse. Now you have to activate the autolocked gate which is half seized with salt and corruption with cold wet hands before you can leave where you're clipped into. You don't need me to tell you how fast a biner gate can get gummed up at sea.

As for a wiregate twisting off a padeye, I mentioned earlier that a soft loop spliced to every strong point to clip into makes that a non-issue. Yes, you still have to be thoughtful and intentional and clip wisely, but in my experience there's nothing better or more efficient for a tether than a wiregate.

[Snore]

Ok call me a neanderthal- but I HATE Wilchard tethers!

A good tether should be easy to use, be easy to inspect and not get in your way. The only one that does that is the West Marine (gasp!) two leg tether.

1-The WM product was the first to use Kong double action clips. Why double action? They will almost never open by mistake, yet are easy to operate. I am not a weak man, but the Wilchards require too much hand strength to operate.

2-The WM has shock load indicators. These threads show if the tether has received a shock load and may need replacement.

3-The WM also has elastic sewn into the tether. So when not in use the scrunch up out of the way.

The downside is that the Kong clips will wear riding on then SS ring of my WM harness- so after a few years I replace the tether.


PS- the NEW Spinlocks are similar- but the WM are good once you get over that they came from WM.

[Peeew]

I use climbing webbing and I use knots instead of seeing. Replaceable when worn. I also use locking climbing carabiners. They do operate with one hand and I feel that in my climbing experience they work. For jack lines I’m happy with webbing also. Strong and doesn’t roll underfoot. I’m sure there are lots of good ways to rig these things and I agree that preventing going over the lifelines is paramount importance.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Snore

Ok call me a neanderthal- but I HATE Wilchard tethers!...

I'm guessing you have NOT used the new Wichard Proline tethers. I should have been more clear. Totally redesigned and not yet common in the US. I should have been clear. Mine has a quick release on the harness end. They are the most convenient I have ever used.





https://marine.wichard.com/rubrique-...000000-ME.html


I understand that the old style is going out of production. I hated those too.


I'm pretty sure I've climbed as much as anyone here. Rock and ice most weekends for 35 years. I use climbing gear on the rock and marine gear on the boat. That said, I have been a very vocal proponent, both on forums and in print, of via ferrata carabiners for tethers. I love wire gate biners for their elegance, but you don't use them on tethers. You don't use a single biner as sole protection climbing either.



I see no use for an auto locker on a boat. Regularly greased, screw locks can work for tethers that stay on the jackline (this can be a thing for certain work station tethers--depends on the boat), but not for general use. That leaves us with via ferrata carabiners, which were designed by the climbing equipment manufacturers for tether applications. Black Diamond, Clog, Kong, DMM, Petzel, and others make them, for good reasons. Ask them.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I'm guessing you have NOT used the new Wichard Proline tethers. I should have been more clear. Totally redesigned and not yet sold in the US. I should have been clear. Mine has a quick release on the harness end. They are the most convenient I have ever used.





https://marine.wichard.com/rubrique-...000000-ME.html


I understand that the old style is going out of production. I hated those too.

Yes we in “The Colonies” always get things last. [emoji41]

[transmitterdan]

You can say unwanted opening of spring gate carabiners is uncommon all you like but that doesn’t make it so. I can easily open a spring gate carabiner clipped to a pad eye or eye bolt. It’s easy to do in less than a second. It happens accidentally often enough to make them unsuitable for use as PPE on a boat. A tether must never become unhooked except when intended by the user. Even a 1% chance is too much IMO.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

You can say unwanted opening of spring gate carabiners is uncommon all you like but that doesn’t make it so. I can easily open a spring gate carabiner clipped to a pad eye or eye bolt. It’s easy to do in less than a second. It happens accidentally often enough to make them unsuitable for use as PPE on a boat. A tether must never become unhooked except when intended by the user. Even a 1% chance is too much IMO.

I have told you twice not to clip a wiregate to a padeye, but to have a spliced loop for clipping to. If you are unwilling to use this simple expedient, then by all means struggle along with an awkward, heavy, expensive Wichard.
But I ask: how smart is it to have a quick-release at the body end? What if it quickly releases when you don't want it to? That pull-tab could easily snag and activate. I'd say chances of that happening are better than 1 per cent.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Benz

I have told you twice not to clip a wiregate to a padeye, but to have a spliced loop for clipping to. If you are unwilling to use this simple expedient, then by all means struggle along with an awkward, heavy, expensive Wichard.
But I ask: how smart is it to have a quick-release at the body end? What if it quickly releases when you don't want it to? That pull-tab could easily snag and activate. I'd say chances of that happening are better than 1 per cent.

a. Have you used the Wichard Proline? The Tango? Probably not, so don't argue that they are awkward. I have used both, and with gloves, for example, and they are easier than wire gates. In fact, for ice climbing I often use the larger wire gates for the rope end of draws and for slings.


Will a wire gate clip a railing? No. Can you clip the loop with one hand? No. I've used wire gate carabiners lots, so I do understand the tradeoff.



b. The Wichard Proline tethers are available with either quick release or carbiner on the harness end. Your choice. I can see the argument either way and World Sailing does not specify.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by thinwater

a. Have you used the Wichard Proline? The Tango? Probably not, so don't argue that they are awkward. I have used both, and with gloves, for example, and they are easier than wire gates. In fact, for ice climbing I often use the larger wire gates for the rope end of draws and for slings.


Will a wire gate clip a railing? No. Can you clip the loop with one hand? No. I've used wire gate carabiners lots, so I do understand the tradeoff.



b. The Wichard Proline tethers are available with either quick release or carbiner on the harness end. Your choice. I can see the argument either way and World Sailing does not specify.

Sorry, I can't make head or tail of your first paragraph. Are you saying there's a Proline or Tango wiregate you use for ice climbing? I've only seen the clunky two-part plastic doo-hicky gate sort. Or are you saying you use a Wichard aloft and a wiregate alow? Given the price of the Proline, your ice rack must be massively expensive.

I'm not sure why clipping a railing is desirable--I like to establish proper clipping spots. Also, there's no railings on my boat. And finally, after many years of clipping fixed slings one-handed, I'm happy to say that I have no difficulty clipping a nice, fat, spliced loop one-handed. It's a matter of practice.

Who is World Sailing and why do we care what they may or may not specify?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Benz

Sorry, I can't make head or tail of your first paragraph. Are you saying there's a Proline or Tango wiregate you use for ice climbing? I've only seen the clunky two-part plastic doo-hicky gate sort. Or are you saying you use a Wichard aloft and a wiregate alow? Given the price of the Proline, your ice rack must be massively expensive.

I'm not sure why clipping a railing is desirable--I like to establish proper clipping spots. Also, there's no railings on my boat. And finally, after many years of clipping fixed slings one-handed, I'm happy to say that I have no difficulty clipping a nice, fat, spliced loop one-handed. It's a matter of practice.

Who is World Sailing and why do we care what they may or may not specify?

Proline is the Wichard tether carabiner. Tangos are found on several sailing tethers and are used for via ferrata climbing. Neither are wire gates and thus could not have been the ones I was talking about in the later sentence. Neither of these have plastic gates and can stand perhaps 5x the side load a wire gate biner can. They are far more rugged than the average climbing carabiner, as proven by UIAA 121 type K testing.



Rails are a secondary clip for added stability. The long tether would still be on the jackline. And this option has saved lives around the pulpit, for example, when a 6' tether is too long.



I've been clipping slings one handed for 35 years. You would have to show me video of you clipping a sling, in the spray, in the dark, with gloves, on a heaving deck, with one hand. I'm calling BS on that. Might happen, but not a robust plan.


--- Do what you like. It is far better than nothing. But no manufacture or standards group would agree that clipping with a non-locking carabiner as your sole attachment point is OK. There are better ways. It's not that wire gate carabiners are not widely available. Wichard and West Marine know of them and Kong makes them. Racing sailors are very weight conscious and know of them. They just don't use them. You say snap shackles can come off.



One last thing. I've got a broken non-locking biner on my bookshelf. It was clipped to a sling, but during the fall the gate rotated against the rock and was pressed open. The carabiner then failed at its open gate load, which is very easily exceed. It was a nothing fall, like a top rope fall. Fortunately, I had another piece just below. I keep it there, on the book shelf, to remind me that sh_t happens.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

The jack line and tether system should keep you inside the lifelines at all times. If it does that and can’t break then it’s ok IMO. But if it will let you go through or over the lifelines and leave you dangling over the side or in the water it isn’t doing anything useful IMO.

What if it leaves you dangling over the side out of the water? Afterall modern boats have huge freeboard these days.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

What if it leaves you dangling over the side out of the water? Afterall modern boats have huge freeboard these days.

Most of us cannot get back aboard whilst dangling over the side from a tether. Without a special harness most of us would die anyway due to internal injuries or suffocation. Test it yourself. Clip into your jack line with the tether, climb through the lifelines and roll over the side. See whether you can get back aboard before you die.

The goal of a jack line and tether is to never let you get past the lifelines.

[Breaking Waves]

some good relevant info in this MAIB report (tethered MOB dead - lion incident), and this was on a 'fully' crewed boat:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...00023/Lion.pdf