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Old 14-03-2009, 15:59   #106
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You paper chart people must be seriously rich or not going anywhere.

Charts here cost about $40 each.

This year I am heading to Darwin which would include about 40 charts = $1,600 where my Max Wide chip of the whole of Australia is $250

Then I do indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand and onto the Med. Hundreds of charts.... many thousands of dollars compared with just a few hundred for chips (with sauce).

And, no I wouldn't rely of pirated photo copies of old charts

So: New cheap electronic or say ten thousand dollars?





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Old 14-03-2009, 16:46   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
You paper chart people must be seriously rich or not going anywhere.

Charts here cost about $40 each.

This year I am heading to Darwin which would include about 40 charts = $1,600 where my Max Wide chip of the whole of Australia is $250

Then I do indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand and onto the Med. Hundreds of charts.... many thousands of dollars compared with just a few hundred for chips (with sauce).

And, no I wouldn't rely of pirated photo copies of old charts

So: New cheap electronic or say ten thousand dollars?





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I don't argue with you there. That piece of paper costs more than the equivalent amount of paper stamped with dead presidents and $ signs.

We're going to the channel islands (Jersey, Guernsey, Alderney etc.) this summer, from Sweden. It's roughly 800 miles one way and I estimate that the charts will set us back around $1200. Still, I won't leave without paper charts, and a plotter with charts would set us back another $1500. An alternative would be buying a plotter and finding older, used (not copied) charts for backup. Still thinking about it. I guess it depends on the availability of used charts...

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Old 14-03-2009, 16:48   #108
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Yes, I can explain that error on the c-map. The encoding of the features which had negative depths (baring at low tide) was scrubbed by the data validation routine in certain display units because the data standard for depth has multiple encodings. This resulted in either incorrect data being displayed, or the feature not being displayed.

In other words, a programmer assumed the data was wrong, when it wasn't.
Thanks for that Amgine - if that is the error (or type of error) that meyermm was referring to then he needs to be led to understand that C-Map are not official ENC's and are not approved for use for navigation by any nation that I know of. They are one of the non official providers of electronic charts for the pleasure market and the comments I made earlier about their quality assurance being at large apply (although for C-Map now that Jepperson have it may, through their other interests eg in aviation, be now become better than other non official providers in that).

I know of one ship that quite some years ago now, illegally using non official charts (if I recall correctly it was C-Map, but before Jepperson) hit rocks that were not on the non offical chart they were using but was on the official one - but that was not in Australia (nor was it here in NZ).

As I mentioned it is quite common to use chart plotters on small commercial vessels but as these plotters do not use offcial electronic charts they do not meet the carriage requirements of any nation that I know of so only serve as an aid. A wise operator will validate those charts over his operating area before relying on them - in one instance I was involved in the non official electronic chart was correct at one end of one of the vessel's operational areas but had an increasing error reaching 1/2 nm error at the other end. The non official chart supplier seemed totally disinterested in this information when it was provided to him.

------------------------------------------------------------------>

That leads on to one indication of the difference between many of these unofficial chart suppliers and the official ones - the official ones all have a process in place for mariners to report errors or omissions (eg a previously unknown rock) and all reports will be acted upon and the report will be acknowledged. If urgent the matter will be notified in Notices to Mariners and as soon as the error or omission is validated the official electronic charts will be immediately updated and reissued for mariners to download, whereas the paper chart will have to be manually corrected by the mariner or by the reseller the latter assuming that the reseller is a correcting agent (many serving the pleasure market are not).

Some have commented on this all being commercial stuff of no relevance to pleasure boats - well I have news for them, I have operated this way on my own pleasure boat for quite some years now. I am not an exception in doing that because I know of many others that do too. Furthermore, for those whose home waters are in the USA or in NZ the official charts are free (a consortium of Asian countries also make the ENC's for the South China Sea free too). NOAA makes available non encrypted official S-57 ENC's (ie not S-63 encrypted) and NZ makes available all its official RNC's (which include those for a number of the South Pacific Islands and the large scale planning charts for the whole of the Pacific).

It seems to me that many of the detractors of what is being said do not understand and in fact do not want to understand how it all works and choose to be blind to the advantages to be gained in safety and efficiency by going down the electronic track. As for any tools one uses for navigation one needs to set the time aside and have the inclination to learn how to use them properly - that with an open mind interested in learning and in progress rather rather than a closed one.

In the end, like those who suffered from keyboard fear when PC's were introduced to the home and business world, they will either be forced into changing or else be left behind using the primitive methods of pencil and paper. That will be their choice and no doubt they will continue to self justify that choice by throwing up ill informed criticisms of electronic. Fortunately nature has imposed a self extinguishing force on such views so with time the detractors, as has happened with the detractors of many other technological advances, will die out.

Again, as I said before but it seems some did not read, any chart can be incorrect and one should navigate with that in mind - my comments should not be taken to cut across that.
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Old 14-03-2009, 16:49   #109
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[quote=MarkJ;264428]You paper chart people must be seriously rich or not going anywhere.

Charts here cost about $40 each.

This year I am heading to Darwin which would include about 40 charts = $1,600 where my Max Wide chip of the whole of Australia is $250

Then I do indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand and onto the Med. Hundreds of charts.... many thousands of dollars compared with just a few hundred for chips (with sauce).

And, no I wouldn't rely of pirated photo copies of old charts

So: New cheap electronic or say ten thousand dollars?
Oh come on Mark 40 charts crap! No way do you need 40 paper charts. Where did you dream up that number from? Last time I priced Maxsea for east coast Australia they quoted $400 something as well! How much is your boat worth? Then look at the price of a few charts is it worth the risk? I am not suggesting and I am sure others are not that you purchase every chart for every area you cruise.

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Old 14-03-2009, 16:56   #110
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You have been correct this far, now to your speculation Explain to me how making the ECDIS mandatory (and this is just ONE mandatory ECDIS, it is not a mandatory paperless system), would render paper charts illegal.
Well let me give you a real simple example. There is nothing to stop a SOLAS vessel carrying an atlas but it must not be used as the means for navigation - it would in fact be illegal to do so.

As you have agreed, we are heading down the road to where for SOLAS vessels electronic charts (on ECDIS) will be mandatory for navigation. Just as SOLAS vessels can carry an atlas on board they will still be able to have paper charts on board should they want but they will not be able to be used as the means for navigation. Just like with the atlas it will be illegal to do so.

But this really is just relevant to commercial vessels (and only SOLAS ones for some time) so is mostly irrelevant to people here - in most countries the chart carriage requirements for pleasure vessels is either not or only loosely defined. I only raised it as an example of where the increased safety from the use of electronic is leading to the mandating of the use of electronic charts.
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Old 14-03-2009, 17:05   #111
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Midlandone - You write a great deal (many words) but could you tell me where you purchase these OFFICIAL DEAD ACCURATE electronic charts and what form they come in as well as what brands of chart plotter will accept them. I hope you are not know going to tell us they will not run in "pleasure boat equipment". As for c-map most of the cruisers I know use their product including MarkJ (Maxsea). All of the readily available brands of cruising instruments also use these products so please enlighten me and I will throw it overboard.
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Old 14-03-2009, 17:09   #112
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Well let me give you a real simple example. There is nothing to stop a SOLAS vessel carrying an atlas but it must not be used as the means for navigation - it would in fact be illegal to do so.

As you have agreed, we are heading down the road to where for SOLAS vessels electronic charts (on ECDIS) will be mandatory for navigation. Just as SOLAS vessels can carry an atlas on board they will still be able to have paper charts on board should they want but they will not be able to be used as the means for navigation. Just like with the atlas it will be illegal to do so.

But this really is just relevant to commercial vessels (and only SOLAS ones for some times) so is mostly irrelevant to people here - in most countries the chart carriage requirements for pleasure vessels is either not or only loosely defined. I only raised it as an example of where the increased safety from the use of electronic is leading to the mandating of the use of electronic charts.
Yes, carrying an ECDIS will be mandatory. Carrying a complete paperless system with two of eachother independent ECDIS's (which is a requirement to be allowed to sail without paper charts) will not be mandatory. This means that paper charts will still be required, and vessels carrying only one ECDIS, mandatory or not, will still need to keep corrected paper charts on board.
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Old 14-03-2009, 17:30   #113
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East & Northeast Australia - including the Great Barrier Reef - 63 Charts $ 1276


Northern Australia - Torres Strait to Barrow Island - 41 Charts $ 830

Total $1906


C-Map Max AU-M005 All of Australia 45965N$349.90


Remember I am doing a few months in the Great Barrier Reef and Torres St.

I rest my pieces...

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Old 14-03-2009, 17:56   #114
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Mark - which retailer do you purchase your c-map's from?
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Old 14-03-2009, 18:08   #115
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Mark - which retailer do you purchase your c-map's from?
Whitworths. Hate them, but theres no one else anywhere I go...
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Old 14-03-2009, 18:33   #116
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Midlandone - You write a great deal (many words) but could you tell me where you purchase these OFFICIAL DEAD ACCURATE electronic charts and what form they come in as well as what brands of chart plotter will accept them. I hope you are not know going to tell us they will not run in "pleasure boat equipment". As for c-map most of the cruisers I know use their product including MarkJ (Maxsea). All of the readily available brands of cruising instruments also use these products so please enlighten me and I will throw it overboard.
I have not claimed that any charts are dead accurate, whether they are official, paper or electronic. You apparantly have not read my remark at the end of my recent posts where I specifically point that out .

Offical electronic charts run under many electronic charting systems available to and used by pleasure boats. I use Endeavour Navigator, as do others I know, - I will leave you to search through the others but you will find others that do also. The selection becomes even wider if one only needs to use non S-63 encrypted ENC's (for example, those sailing in USA waters where NOAA makes available their ENC's in non encrypted form free).

In the end one can buy two new PC's, double up on GPS's (actually NZ flagged vessels clearing for an international voyage here have to carry at least 2 GPS's), have duplicated power supplies (which we have already as do many sail-boats) all within the extra cost of paper charts over electronic if one cruisies extensively.

Actually I would have thought all those harping on about the need for paper charts for safe navigation would have duplicated power supplies already in order to ensure other aspects of their safety and comfort . Just two small examples insofar as navigation is concerned - whether you use paper charts or not, for the vast majority of boats if power is lost they will lose their log. Most boats will also lose their sounder as well - of course that can be easily substituted for but only with a substantial loss of utility and safety. Not a concern for the weekend sailor perhaps but it is for an independant cruising boat.

But, as happened with many other advances in the past I know it is a wasted journey trying to educate those stuck in the mud of the past so I will not persevere. Fortunately, the vast majority of those coming into boating (and especially power boaters where real time navigation is very important due to their speed) are taking to electronic like ducks to water.
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Old 14-03-2009, 18:41   #117
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We're going to the channel islands (Jersey, Guernsey, Alderney etc.) this summer, from Sweden. It's roughly 800 miles one way and I estimate that the charts will set us back around $1200. Still, I won't leave without paper charts, and a plotter with charts would set us back another $1500. An alternative would be buying a plotter and finding older, used (not copied) charts for backup. Still thinking about it. I guess it depends on the availability of used charts...
/Hampus
I would suspect that YBW.com would be a good place to start looking for s/h charts. But in the meantime I will have a look to see what I have here. Possibly not a great deal spare (and I doubt I go past Cherbourg) - but stuff gets "collected" over the years between me and my father. If interested and you have not heard from me within a couple of weeks drop me a PM - I need to have a root around / may have forgotten

Although I am sure on your list already, but whilst I think of it, I would make sure you have a tidal stream atlas for the CI And a tide table
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Old 14-03-2009, 19:16   #118
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Yes, carrying an ECDIS will be mandatory. Carrying a complete paperless system with two of eachother independent ECDIS's (which is a requirement to be allowed to sail without paper charts) will not be mandatory. This means that paper charts will still be required, and vessels carrying only one ECDIS, mandatory or not, will still need to keep corrected paper charts on board.
As far as I am aware the exact carriage requirements as to what will be acceptable as a backup has not yet been determined - the agreement to mandate ECDIS was made at an IMO meeting early in the last half of last year. If you are privy to information as to the exact carriage requirements and upon which you rely in your post I would be interested to hear of them.

But, whatever is determined as the initial carriage requirements will lead at some time in the forseeable future to totally electronic being mandatory. Once one puts one ECDIS on board a SOLAS vessel then it makes only sense that the backup will also be another ECDIS.

That will lead to paper charts becoming obsolete for SOLAS vessels and indeed illegallity will follow. That just as other out dated nav methods and tools have been superceded and become unapproved (illegal) with the course of time.

As an aside, the pressure to move HSC's to mandatory ECDIS has been largely driven because most of their accidents were nav related and use of ECDIS would have greatly reduced the probablity of those. HSC's had already taken the matter into their own hands to realise the safety of electronic before ECDIS by even using pleasure plotters on smaller vessels and ECS's on larger ones. As I pointed out earlier, in the cases of that type I was involved in the charts (being non official) were validated over the vessels' operating area before use in service.

For an example of where electronic nav is going I like to give the example of engineering, architectural, etc drafting - CAD has taken over the world and one would wonder about any professional in those fields that didn't use it. Similarly if I am engaging a naval architect I would wonder at how good a design I was going to get if he did not use software tools for design, cutting files, etc. Electronic nav is well on the way to taking over too.

Anyway, I'm out of here as there is no convincing those stuck in the mud. But I hope some with open minds consider the alternatives to paper, pencils and erasers and those just entering pleasure boating don't get blinded by those promoting historic and dying practices as the only way forward.
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Old 14-03-2009, 19:23   #119
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I have not claimed that any charts are dead accurate, whether they are official, paper or electronic. You apparantly have not read my remark at the end of my recent posts where I specifically point that out .

Offical electronic charts run under many electronic charting systems available to and used by pleasure boats. I use Endeavour Navigator, as do others I know, - I will leave you to search through the others but you will find others that do also. The selection becomes even wider if one only needs to use non S-63 encrypted ENC's (for example, those sailing in USA waters where NOAA makes available their ENC's in non encrypted form free).

In the end one can buy two new PC's, double up on GPS's (actually NZ flagged vessels clearing for an international voyage here have to carry at least 2 GPS's), have duplicated power supplies (which we have already as do many sail-boats) all within the extra cost of paper charts over electronic if one cruisies extensively.

Actually I would have thought all those harping on about the need for paper charts for safe navigation would have duplicated power supplies already in order to ensure other aspects of their safety and comfort . Just two small examples insofar as navigation is concerned - whether you use paper charts or not, for the vast majority of boats if power is lost they will lose their log. Most boats will also lose their sounder as well - of course that can be easily substituted for but only with a substantial loss of utility and safety. Not a concern for the weekend sailor perhaps but it is for an independant cruising boat.

But, as happened with many other advances in the past I know it is a wasted journey trying to educate those stuck in the mud of the past so I will not persevere. Fortunately, the vast majority of those coming into boating (and especially power boaters where real time navigation is very important due to their speed) are taking to electronic like ducks to water.
You still have not answered my question will those you have mentioned fit the average Furuno, Navstar etc chartplotter/GPS why do I need two pc's?
Your problem is you assume too much 99% of my navigating is carried out electronicly. I use a PC for navigating as well and ended up with five GPS's on board including a hand held unit. Radar, Weather fax, sailmail etc etc like many other cruisers so preaching electronics to me is a waste of time as I am already a user in fact would have loved forward looking sonar as well, next boat.
When US looked for ways of writing in space they spent lots of time and money coming up with a device, the Russians used the ever reliable pencil, think about it!
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Old 14-03-2009, 19:29   #120
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Gotta be fair to C-Map

This particular error affecting only a limited set of objects on a limited set of charts, and even then only with a limited set of chart viewers.

Most likely, this was only a few older viewers with newer charts. I dunno precisely. On the other hand, I do know such errors are rare but not unknown in most any application with a very large number of data sources.

Which is why one should not rely on any single source of information while navigating, in my personal opinion.
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