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Old 07-02-2015, 15:20   #256
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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The reality is that I like the idea of having paper charts on board but we simply do not have the space. Which is completely moronic design for a blue water cruiser. We have the smallest interior of just about any 38 foot boat.

When we left Annapolis we had a complete set of charts for the east coast and for the Bahamas (we still have our explorer chart books). However, between the guide books we have - that have charts and details in them - and the likelihood of some electronic catastrophe befalling us, we had to choose between those charts and space for beer. Guess which won out.
I'm a bit surprised you couldn't find the room, 3 Maptech chartkits will get down the coast from the Chesapeake, it's not like they're not gonna really take up all that much space...

Last summer I carried everything I might have needed for Atlantic Canada - Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, and Labrador... In excess of 200 charts, folded in quarters comes to a stack about 10 inches high, and a weight of about 70 pounds... Oh, and did I mention, I only sail a 30-footer? ;-)

Now, THAT is a dinosaur personified, no?

;-)

YMMV, but it's worth it to me...
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Old 07-02-2015, 15:21   #257
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Zboss, of course you have room on your boat for charts, even for a RTW. It isn't necessary to carry them all all the time. Few of us dino's try to carry the whole world's charts all the time. Rather, we carry the ones appropriate to the area we are traversing, and either ship them home when moving on, or trade with someone going the other way, or sell them off or use them for gasket paper! Whatever... the volume of one slab of beer will house one hell of a lot of paper charts, and beer is available in quite a few foreign ports (possibly excluding some Muslim areas).

Remember that folks like the Hiscocks, relying solely upon paper charts and sailing a narrow 30 footer managed to carry paper charts AND darkroom supplies AND all the other crap appropriate to the oceans upon which they were sailing.

Further, if one's primary charting is electronic (as is our case), one need not carry a complete portfolio. A judicious selection of a few large and small scale charts will serve for navigation well enough to get you safely into some port or another in the event of e-disaster.

And re paper charts disappearing entirely... I doubt it for the next decade or more. The means of production and distribution will likely change, though. Eg, print on demand paper at a few chart agents in "civilized" countries. A suitable printer, while expensive, is a good deal less expensive than maintaining an inventory of paper and keeping that inventory up to date. We are already seeing that sort of arrangement in some places, and I suspect that it will become widespread. Further out in time, well who can tell? I'll not likely still be cruising!

Jim
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Old 07-02-2015, 15:23   #258
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Very interesting to hear about the nature of the damage as well as all the redundancy you had in place. I forgot for a moment that you are on a multi-hull and the windlass is presumably closer to midships as opposed to near the bow. Hindsight is always genius, but why route a lightening protection cable via another electrical device on its way from the mast to a grounding plate affixed to the hull? Not challenging it, just don't know. In general, and to the extent there is any "consensus" on a viable protection/mitigation system, your set-up seems to be it. Who knows, it could be why more of your electronics didn't get damaged, but of course impossible to say with any certainty.

This probably isn't news to you or many others, but I recently ran across a lithium battery pack the size of a small notebook that claimed it had the capacity to start a pickup truck diesel engine. Also had USB & other ports for charging devices, as well as large batt. cables/clamps. I was actually considering a portable solar panel but thought this might be more useful. Apparently this battery pack, like anything lithium, can go a long time w/o recharging. Your story of losing several of your house batts. reminded me of this.

Although these paper vs. electronic nav threads come up quite often, there's usually new info & perspectives in them that I find useful. Thanks.
One of us is on the wrong thread?
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Old 07-02-2015, 15:26   #259
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Hindsight is always genius, but why route a lightening protection cable via another electrical device on its way from the mast to a grounding plate affixed to the hull?
Because I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. The cable leaves the mast and slopes off to drop over the deck through the tramp. At the point of the drop, it could either make a sharper bend over the deck, or an idiot could give it a smoother bend by leading it over the conveniently placed windlass motor.

In my defense, if we hadn't had been hit by lightning, it would have worked out just well that way.

Also, I don't know for sure that is how the windlass was damaged. Since the strike got into the electrical system, it is quite possible that current ran through the big windlass wire into the motor and did the damage.

Mark
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Old 07-02-2015, 15:41   #260
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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For the record - and perspective on my posts - personal computers came out when I was in college, and I have never used a smart phone, so I am not of the "younger generation". I, too, grew up with paper charts and DR navigation, and boated like that for several decades (I did get a 2-line TD display Loran during that time).

As for the second thing - I have attempted to put real-life experience in providing a perspective on just that point - what the real probability is of a properly redundant system taking a **** - even in a direct lightning strike, as well as how one may still get home without paper charts.

BTW, I seriously doubt many people out there with paper charts on board know how to get home should their electronics go down. I don't mean anybody here, of course.

Mark
Mark, I went through school with a slide rule.

I hope all that have their redundant electronics never have a problem. It would just be nice to think they could get home without them. We have rock jetties here at the harbor mouth, it amazes me how many high dollar yachts end up on one. Probably has nothing to do with mode of navigation?
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Old 07-02-2015, 15:58   #261
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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One of us is on the wrong thread?
Dunno? The OP asked if paper charts are "dinosaurs," i.e. obsolete. If the answer is yes, then that can only mean that e-nav can now reliably take its place. That question is necessarily dependent on whether e-only can survive a lightening strike or other major power failure. That leads to alternative sources of power. And so on . . . .

Is any of this off-topic?
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Old 07-02-2015, 16:12   #262
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Because I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. The cable leaves the mast and slopes off to drop over the deck through the tramp. At the point of the drop, it could either make a sharper bend over the deck, or an idiot could give it a smoother bend by leading it over the conveniently placed windlass motor.

In my defense, if we hadn't had been hit by lightning, it would have worked out just well that way.

Also, I don't know for sure that is how the windlass was damaged. Since the strike got into the electrical system, it is quite possible that current ran through the big windlass wire into the motor and did the damage.

Mark
LOL! Seems to me what you meant to say was that your windlass already had a 4/0 cable from the battery attached to its corresponding fitting, and so it was most efficient to simply attach the same sized cable from the mast to this same fitting, along with another one going to the grounding plate. Brilliant!
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Old 07-02-2015, 16:15   #263
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Dunno? The OP asked if paper charts are "dinosaurs," i.e. obsolete. If the answer is yes, then that can only mean that e-nav can now reliably take its place. That question is necessarily dependent on whether e-only can survive a lightening strike or other major power failure. That leads to alternative sources of power. And so on . . . .

Is any of this off-topic?
Probably not after rereading. It just seemed to bring several other threads?

Probably my mistake.
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Old 07-02-2015, 16:19   #264
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Probably not after rereading. It just seemed to bring several other threads?

Probably my mistake.
I hear ya. I've also got Dockhead's thread going right now re: e-nav & the "zooming in" issue. Much of that is whether paper charts are still needed or desirable for planning purposes in complex waters. Certainly relevant to this thread, only different!
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Old 07-02-2015, 16:27   #265
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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We have rock jetties here at the harbor mouth, it amazes me how many high dollar yachts end up on one. Probably has nothing to do with mode of navigation?
Although I personally still use & like my paper charts, I'm not sure any mode of navigation could be blamed for that one. OK, maybe if they were e-only and their plotter and radar crapped out at the last minute. Or maybe that zooming-in issue on Dockhead's thread. But while that may be a quirk of the technology, it's pretty readily overcome. Maybe a cascading series of events induced by sleep deprivation & bad weather? If so, then that's a scenario where the plotters really shine, imho.
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Old 07-02-2015, 19:55   #266
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Thanks again.

The first thing I notice is that the article is from 2006.

I'm going to google his name and see if he's written anything about phone GPS lately.
Puts into perspective how old the idea that ithings do not have useful GPS really is.

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I'm a bit surprised you couldn't find the room, 3 Maptech chartkits will get down the coast from the Chesapeake, it's not like they're not gonna really take up all that much space...
Tell me about it. 70 Pounds is a lot of weight and room and my 1/2 pound ipad has all those charts - so why bother.

We have 8 devices with charts that we can navigate by and 9 devices with GPS. We have several compasses and several watches on board that can be used for old school navigation.
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Old 07-02-2015, 21:00   #267
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Puts into perspective how old the idea that ithings do not have useful GPS really is.
Well...

One computer year is about seventeen dog years.
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Old 08-02-2015, 04:38   #268
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

You only have to look at Team Vestas to see what happens if you only rely on electronics. A catastrophic grounding on a well known shoal that could have been even worse.

Volvo Ocean Race: Team Vestas Wind Abandoned on Reef After Grounding - gCaptain Maritime & Offshore News
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Old 08-02-2015, 05:17   #269
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Vestas was also relying on paper charts the same as their electronics. In other words, neither were used properly or with sufficient skill.

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Old 08-02-2015, 05:38   #270
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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And a sextant with its requisite peripherals? This point keeps getting conveniently glossed over whenever the "fragility of electronics" argument is made.

Mark
Yes, I carry a sextant and know how to take an accurate noon sight. But, short of that, being able to maintain a DR would be a whole lot better than being completely lost, I'm sure you'd agree.
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