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Old 04-02-2015, 11:36   #181
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by jkindredpdx View Post
Wow! What a long thread. Only coffee, beer, or wine deserve a more heated and opinionated discussion... Oh hold on a second, thanks, sorry for the delay but my battery was going dead and I had to plug in... anyway IMHO, whether you use paper or not is a personal preference... so why feel compelled to prove the other guy wrong? I'd think the one thing we'd all agree on is there is no single right way. Is my antique Furuno, OpenCPN, and handheld GPS, compass, and paper chart system perfect? No! but it'll work for me until it doesn't and then I improve it.

I believe those advocating paper backup. myself included, are trying to stop the electronic only advocates from getting in a bind. It may not ever happen to them but once my be to many. As far as using the electronic means of navigation, no argument, it is easier probably better and one hell of a lot less space consuming.
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:47   #182
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
I believe those advocating paper backup. myself included, are trying to stop the electronic only advocates from getting in a bind.
Thank you, that's very kind!

For perspective, some who have posted on this thread have been around the world on nothing but electronic charts, while others have less, but still, extensive and long-term experience with same.

Some of us have even experienced fully destructive lightning strikes without losing our capabilities to navigate by electronic means.

None of us, of course, have a single system dependent on a chain of other single systems. This keeps us out of the bind you are concerned about.

However, we do need to keep asteroid impacts, thermonuclear wars and earth-scorching solar flares in mind.

Mark
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:47   #183
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I mark the fix by placing a waypoint and using a circle as an icon.



The time and bearing values can be added using the waypoint name of the waypoint properties. Check the show name box and they are visible.



BTW - you can also use different colours for each "route" / LOP to make it easier to distinguish between the course and the LOPs.

Like your system. I'll have to play around with that.

Thanks


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Old 04-02-2015, 11:56   #184
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Is that your sextant timepiece in the lower corner?

Mark
Actually the navigating timepiece is mounted below on the bulkhead next to the barometer...
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Old 04-02-2015, 12:37   #185
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Thank you, that's very kind!

For perspective, some who have posted on this thread have been around the world on nothing but electronic charts, while others have less, but still, extensive and long-term experience with same.

Some of us have even experienced fully destructive lightning strikes without losing our capabilities to navigate by electronic means.

None of us, of course, have a single system dependent on a chain of other single systems. This keeps us out of the bind you are concerned about.

However, we do need to keep asteroid impacts, thermonuclear wars and earth-scorching solar flares in mind.

Mark
However, we do need to keep asteroid impacts, thermonuclear wars and earth-scorching solar flares in mind.
Mark, forgoing the above. I somewhat double the average Joe has multiple electronic backup? It seems most try for multipurpose electronics for space and cost. One small chip could put them totally at risk. I guess it is a personal preference, knowledge and pocketbook.
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Old 04-02-2015, 13:43   #186
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
Mark, forgoing the above. I somewhat double the average Joe has multiple electronic backup? It seems most try for multipurpose electronics for space and cost. One small chip could put them totally at risk. I guess it is a personal preference, knowledge and pocketbook.
If one is relying solely on electronic navigation, one would have proper fail-over for it. This is the same as one relying solely on paper/manual navigation.

It is surprisingly easy to acquire backup electronic positioning data, and even charts, without trying to. For example, we have two cameras onboard with GPS in them. We didn't want, or try, to get two more positioning devices, but there they are.

Likewise, if you have a smartphone, tablet, certain watches, etc, you most likely have acquired an electronic positioning device. If your phone or tablet has any type of mapping or location program on it, you have rudimentary charts that could certainly be used to get toward land, and even run along a coast to a harbor.

But you wouldn't be using that because you would have downloaded a free basic navigation application and free nautical charts for it. Or you may have spent <$50 to get a more full-fledged navigation program.

We currently have 11 GPS devices on board - several of them either contained in some other device or purchased for <$50.

Of course, you may have a computer onboard. If so, there is great free navigation applications for it - but you may have to spring $25 to get a GPS puck for it.

Many paper-chart users have a handheld GPS as a matter of principle.

So you see, it is very easy and can be pretty inexpensive to acquire many backup positioning devices - and if you have a smartphone, tablet or computer, it is free and easy to have actual navigation programs outside of a chart plotter. If you have a couple of the above, you are probably overwhelmed with backup systems.

What is interesting to me are the few posters here who actually recognize the flaw in the paper-chart carrying logic (but aren't directly admitting it). These are the posters who are advocating carrying a sextant and all its attendant peripherals and being proficient and practiced at using it.

Few others seem to understand their point - even though they continue to blindly push the paper chart backup argument. The flaw in the argument is that if one loses their positioning source, one doesn't have much use for their paper charts unless very close to land. And even then, I bet many will get into rapid trouble.

Sure, there are some here who could dead-reckon their way for a couple of weeks and continue their passage safely. I suspect they are a minority.

So this "lose electricity" and "lose electronics" argument cuts both ways unless one is VERY prepared and experienced with manual positioning devices.

And if one is so prepared to have backup electronic positioning devices that are not dependent on other single-failure systems, (main batteries, etc), then one does not have a leg to stand on in the argument against electronic-only navigation. If one believes in loss of GPS systems in whole, then not even those with backups are valid.

The only people left standing in this debate are the sextant crowd. And they are rarified indeed.

Here, I just have to ask how realistic is that in today's age? Should it really be considered prudent to be fully versed in sextant use, have calibrated, accurate, non-electronic timepieces, have paper sight reduction tables, do all math by hand because the electronic calculator cannot be used, etc?

Is this the only safe way to put to sea?

Because anyone thinking they are safer just because they have a paper chart on board is deluding themselves unless they have addressed the above - and anyone using solely electronic navigation who have prepared as I describe is far safer.

On the other hand, in the event of an asteroid strike even the sextant people are screwed since it will be several months at a minimum until they see the sun and stars again.

Mark
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Old 04-02-2015, 13:43   #187
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by sailpooka View Post
Paper Charts are absolutely necessary. I'd never be without them.
If you ever went anywhere you would change your attitude. A circumnavigation in paper charts we worked out on this forum a few years ago casts $15,000


Pay that out and then tell me
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Old 04-02-2015, 13:45   #188
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

The problem we dinosaurs have is that we have too much experience. When I first started to cruise the most complicated piece of electronics on board was an RDF; Depth sounder was solid state - lead, and the radio was a Zenith Trans Oceanic. We know the ocean is a dangerous place, even more so for anything electrical.

I have seen total electrical failure, gadget boats that had become floating hulks and lightening strikes that have taken out everything that had a plug or a battery; even an SSB that got fried while still in the box - on the saloon table!

And lets not even get started on the numbers of boaters that were rudely awakened when the sea got where it should not.

Don't get me wrong, I know that marine electrics have come a long way in the last 45 years and my current cat has lots of gadgets, but the navigation knowledge I keep in two places - the computing instruments - AND in my head! I keep my skill sets sharp and I know that if it all goes to hell I'll still be able to safely navigate and pilot to anywhere in the world.

Paper may be a pain. But when the lightening strikes are fast and furious, it just makes the chart easier to read - and I feel secure in the knowledge that they're one solid state item that works even when wet.
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Old 04-02-2015, 14:16   #189
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
If one is relying solely on electronic navigation, one would have proper fail-over for it. This is the same as one relying solely on paper/manual navigation.

It is surprisingly easy to acquire backup electronic positioning data, and even charts, without trying to. For example, we have two cameras onboard with GPS in them. We didn't want, or try, to get two more positioning devices, but there they are.

Likewise, if you have a smartphone, tablet, certain watches, etc, you most likely have acquired an electronic positioning device. If your phone or tablet has any type of mapping or location program on it, you have rudimentary charts that could certainly be used to get toward land, and even run along a coast to a harbor.

But you wouldn't be using that because you would have downloaded a free basic navigation application and free nautical charts for it. Or you may have spent <$50 to get a more full-fledged navigation program.

We currently have 11 GPS devices on board - several of them either contained in some other device or purchased for <$50.

Of course, you may have a computer onboard. If so, there is great free navigation applications for it - but you may have to spring $25 to get a GPS puck for it.

Many paper-chart users have a handheld GPS as a matter of principle.

So you see, it is very easy and can be pretty inexpensive to acquire many backup positioning devices - and if you have a smartphone, tablet or computer, it is free and easy to have actual navigation programs outside of a chart plotter. If you have a couple of the above, you are probably overwhelmed with backup systems.

What is interesting to me are the few posters here who actually recognize the flaw in the paper-chart carrying logic (but aren't directly admitting it). These are the posters who are advocating carrying a sextant and all its attendant peripherals and being proficient and practiced at using it.

Few others seem to understand their point - even though they continue to blindly push the paper chart backup argument. The flaw in the argument is that if one loses their positioning source, one doesn't have much use for their paper charts unless very close to land. And even then, I bet many will get into rapid trouble.

Sure, there are some here who could dead-reckon their way for a couple of weeks and continue their passage safely. I suspect they are a minority.

So this "lose electricity" and "lose electronics" argument cuts both ways unless one is VERY prepared and experienced with manual positioning devices.

And if one is so prepared to have backup electronic positioning devices that are not dependent on other single-failure systems, (main batteries, etc), then one does not have a leg to stand on in the argument against electronic-only navigation. If one believes in loss of GPS systems in whole, then not even those with backups are valid.

The only people left standing in this debate are the sextant crowd. And they are rarified indeed.

Here, I just have to ask how realistic is that in today's age? Should it really be considered prudent to be fully versed in sextant use, have calibrated, accurate, non-electronic timepieces, have paper sight reduction tables, do all math by hand because the electronic calculator cannot be used, etc?

Is this the only safe way to put to sea?

Because anyone thinking they are safer just because they have a paper chart on board is deluding themselves unless they have addressed the above - and anyone using solely electronic navigation who have prepared as I describe is far safer.

On the other hand, in the event of an asteroid strike even the sextant people are screwed since it will be several months at a minimum until they see the sun and stars again.

Mark
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Old 04-02-2015, 14:20   #190
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuzzyFeat View Post
The problem we dinosaurs have is that we have too much experience. When I first started to cruise the most complicated piece of electronics on board was an RDF; Depth sounder was solid state - lead, and the radio was a Zenith Trans Oceanic. We know the ocean is a dangerous place, even more so for anything electrical.

I have seen total electrical failure, gadget boats that had become floating hulks and lightening strikes that have taken out everything that had a plug or a battery; even an SSB that got fried while still in the box - on the saloon table!

And lets not even get started on the numbers of boaters that were rudely awakened when the sea got where it should not.

Don't get me wrong, I know that marine electrics have come a long way in the last 45 years and my current cat has lots of gadgets, but the navigation knowledge I keep in two places - the computing instruments - AND in my head! I keep my skill sets sharp and I know that if it all goes to hell I'll still be able to safely navigate and pilot to anywhere in the world.

Paper may be a pain. But when the lightening strikes are fast and furious, it just makes the chart easier to read - and I feel secure in the knowledge that they're one solid state item that works even when wet.
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Old 04-02-2015, 14:58   #191
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

For passage / trip planning there is nothing quite like paper charts of various scales that measure 3' X 4'.
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Old 04-02-2015, 15:13   #192
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Mark may be right. I'm a dinosaur that taught binary logic at on time. I'd have to ask a grandson about some of todays applications. So maybe it is just what you a comfortable with? Just as a gig, the halo effect of lightning might take everything out including the user.


Roger
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Old 04-02-2015, 15:59   #193
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

192 posts!


OK so which side won? Are paper charts a dinosaur or not?


More importantly, did anyone's mind get changed? Even a little bit?
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Old 04-02-2015, 16:00   #194
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
For passage / trip planning there is nothing quite like paper charts of various scales that measure 3' X 4'.
Not even a 3'x4' HD display of electronic charts?

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Old 04-02-2015, 16:02   #195
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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More importantly, did anyone's mind get changed? Even a little bit?
If so, it would be a first for any topic in the history of the internet.

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